Useless Praetorians

[scooter]

Improving them would be absurd.

For some reason I found this absolutely hilarious, I literally laughed out loud.

 

[Moon Pine]

Wow, Strength 10 Rome Legion!!!!
I won't train Knights anymore^^

 

[m9x]

well, Rise of Rome scenario for warlords kinda gave me an idea. it features a tech tree that upgrades praetorians to Praetorian II, III and so on. if I'd modify that to be less powerful, you could have praetorian I with strength of 5 or 6, and the tech upgrades each increase it by one more. means, if you totally dominate ALREADY, you're allowed to have strength 8 or 9 praets.

 

[Kranden]

Praetorians with Machine guns! Discuss!

 

[frob2900]

Praetorians with Machine guns! Discuss!

When you simply have to kill every archer in the room, accept no substitute!

 

[Astax]

If the axeman and reat both have shock, then the preat will have better odds in all situations. That's why I like them But the extra cost plus the inability to get 2 promotions early on is the drawback. Unless you play unrealistic leaders. But overall they seem pretty balanced. Back when no one used swordsman, otehr than to get that pesky archer off forested hill, preats were the only swordmen in use. It made it seem like swordsmen were not a useless unit.

Overall thou I think swordsmen could use a buff. Even thou they get used a bit more in BTS, they are still not as useful. I think maybe raising their str to 7 would be a step in the right direction.

 

[Kranden]

When you simply have to kill every archer in the room, accept no substitute!

Ohhh when I can im going to make that my Avatar Still have to wait a few weeks sucks.

 

[Stuie]

I always thought that in CIV IV the roman UU was too weak.

@ this entire thread - I knew I was in for a good time right from the opening line.

Love the picture of the 50 strength Praet that has nuke capability. Yeah - that'll do it.

 

[r_rolo1]

Praetorians with Machine guns! Discuss!

When you simply have to kill every archer in the room, accept no substitute!

This wouldn't make the Praet a Machine gunner, ence incapable of attacking? I doubt that woulb beef them....

 

[Dnomal]

IGNORANT STATEMENT OF THE YEAR ALERT!!!! BASED ON WHAT? THEIR COOL GREY UNIFORMS? THEIR RESPECT FOR LIFE? FEAR OF DEFENDING THE HOMELAND? (being the invaders, they werent worried about their families getting killed). How silly.

Ahem, superior training from being in the army since the introduction of conscription in 36, three years of Combat experience in different thearters of operation, unshakable confidence and belief in what they were doing.

Superior weapons technology, excellent use of the Blitzkreig tactic, excellent generals like Rommel, normal troops suplemented with crack SS units....

Need I go on?

Granted the Red Army's motivation was exceptionally strong, I'd wager on a machine gun against a motivated soldier any day....

Also, people seem to be misunderstanding my original post, I wasn't saying the German Army was a more efficent fighting machine than any of the other armies, I was saying that one on one a Whermacht Soldier at his peak could easily defeat an Allied soldier.

 

[kokomo]

Just to refresh my memory...

which is the main difference between ordinary "swordsman" and praetorians?

thnx...

 

[r_rolo1]

Just to refresh my memory...

which is the main difference between ordinary "swordsman" and praetorians?

thnx...

Swords 6 str

Praet 8 str

A 2 str increase makes a little diference...

 

[frob2900]

Swords 6 str
Praet 8 str
A 2 str increase makes a little diference...

Nitpick: The Praet doesn't get the +10% City Attack (not that it matters so much when compared to the +2 str)

 

[p dandy]

I don't know what you are talking about. I stopped using the Romans because this UU was powerful.

 

[r_rolo1]

Thanks for the correction, frob2900. But like you said, who cares? A 8 str unit will eat a 4 str unit alive with or without 10% bonuses...

 

[largedarryl]

The big thing with the praet is it should be given the CR1 promotion right out the door.

So IMHO, one of the reasons they are so OP is because they are so strong that you don't even need to worry about another promotion until maceman. If the praet's strength was lowered you would be forced to use a combat promo to equal them out with an axeman.

 

[NP300]

IGNORANT STATEMENT OF THE YEAR ALERT!!!! BASED ON WHAT? THEIR COOL GREY UNIFORMS? THEIR RESPECT FOR LIFE? FEAR OF DEFENDING THE HOMELAND? (being the invaders, they werent worried about their families getting killed). How silly.

The Germans were having their families killed by Allied firebombings. The Allies killed hundreds of thousands of German women and children through firebombings. So the German soldiers knew that their families were in fact getting killed. Further, the German soldier was well aware of what would happen if they lost WWII. They knew what the Communists would do to their families:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,707835,00.html

Natalya Gesse, a close friend of the scientist Andrei Sakharov, had observed the Red Army in action in 1945 as a Soviet war correspondent. "The Russian soldiers were raping every German female from eight to eighty," she recounted later. "It was an army of rapists."

They even raped "liberated" Soviet women:

Polish women also suffered. So did young Russian, Belorussian and Ukrainian women who had been sent back to Germany by the Wehrmacht for slave labour. "Liberated Soviet girls quite often complain that our soldiers rape them," he noted. "One girl said to me in tears: 'He was an old man, older than my father'."

The rape of Soviet women and girls seriously undermines Russian attempts to justify Red Army behaviour on the grounds of revenge for German brutality in the Soviet Union.

Now, after WWII the Soviet Union (on Churchill's suggestion in fact) ethnically cleansed 15 million Germans from East Prussia. 2-3 million were exterminated in the process. This was the single greatest incident of ethnic cleansing in world history and is largely forgotten because history is written by the victors:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evacuation_of_East_Prussia

The wikipedia article alludes to the following:

Soviet soldiers did brutally kill 23 inhabitants in at least the village of Nemmersdorf.

What it doesn't say is that the German civilians were murdered by nailing them alive to doors.

in the words of Winston Churchill "Expulsion is the method which, in so far as we have been able to see, will be the most satisfactory and lasting. There will be no mixture of populations to cause endless trouble".[1]

But history has been kind to Churchill, for he, as a victor, got to write it:

http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/299.html

History will be kind to me for I intend to write it.
Sir Winston Churchill
British politician (1874 - 1965)

The German soldier was also aware of the Morgenthau plan, which helped motivate him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_plan

In wartime Germany, Goebbels was able to use the plan to bolster the German resistance on the Western front.

but also because they were motivated by an unchecked, bitter and potent need for revenge.

I don't buy this theory that the Soviet soldier was primarily motivated by revenge. Of course, there can be no doubt there was some of that, as there is in any war, but I don't believe it was their main motivation. Consider the fact that millions of Soviet citizens (including many ethnic Russians) volunteered to fight for the Germans even as late as 1944.

Here is a very relevant article on the subject. I recommend that you all read it in its entirety, but I shall quote some relevant fragments.

http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=54

Particularly large was the number of volunteers from among prisoners of war and Soviet refugees who had left their native land voluntarily with the retreating German armies, preferring a wandering life in strange and perhaps unfriendly lands to a return under the NKVD yoke. What is still more puzzling, the desertion from the Red Army to the Germans increased after the publication of the Manifesto, although no one any longer doubted the defeat of Germany.(34) Whatever can be said today about this hope and belief, it remains a fact that it was widespread, particularly in the Red Army.

So, the number of Russians volunteering to fight with the Germans against Communism increased in late 1944, when it was clear Germany would not win. And we are not talking here about a small number of Soviet citizens. Millions of Soviet citizens joined the German war-effort:

General Vlasov and the thousands of his soldiers and millions of his supporters were good Russians and not Hitler's hirelings which, unfortunately, they appeared to be and which Hitler wanted them to be.

Himmler agreed to this interpretation and promised to help with the formation of the KONR Army. To start with, 5 divisions were to be organized from among prisoners and workers brought to Germany from the occupied territories in the east; their number reached almost 5 million.

Also, many Soviet citizens welcomed the Germans as liberators, at least at the start of the war:

The Cossacks, therefore, greeted the Germans as liberators. The entire population of towns, villages and settlements went out to meet the German troops with flowers and gifts of all kinds, singing their national anthems. Cossack formations of the Red Army were coming over to the Germans in a body, new formations were springing up, apparently from nowhere, in traditional uniform and armed with swords, pistols, daggers, and rifles that had been buried for years.

Here is a good list of foreign volunteers in the German military. Note the many units of volunteers from the Soviet Union:

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=307

Tatars:

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=5802

Central Asians:

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=5790

Ethnic Russians:

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=309

Ukrainians:

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1959

Belorussians:

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=884

Now note that the Soviets that went over to the Germans included ethnic Russians. The most notorious Russian defector was General Vlassov(who was an ethnic Russian):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Vlasov

Now why would millions of Soviet citizens volunteer to fight with the German invader? Clearly they must have hated communism more than the Germans.

Back to the original article:

http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=54

Treason does not come easy even to people of a low moral level. At the side of General Vlasov almost a million Soviet citizens were fighting shoulder to shoulder with the invader, and millions of others were showing sympathy for the invader: there must have been very important reasons for this phenomenon.

It is clear that a significant portion of the Soviet population (including ethnic Russians) hated communism more than the Germans. So, is it then believable that the main motivation of the Soviet soldier was revenge? I don't find this theory credible after becoming aware of the above facts.

I think it is more likely that the average Soviet soldier was motivated by fear of being shot by the NKVD for not doing a good enough job. The Soviet Union kept NKVD units behind the front lines. If the Soviet front line units did something silly, like retreating, the NKVD would just shoot them.

This method was used by the Communists during the civil war, and they used it again during WWII (I was told this was protrayed in the film Enemy at the Gates):

http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/xTrots.html

Trotsky himself had killed millions of people when he was commander of the Red Army. During the Civil War, he forced large numbers of "White" soldiers to fight for the "Reds", and he stationed special troops in the rear, with orders to shoot any of the front-line troops who deserted or retreated. It was by such methods that the Civil War was won.

I believe that therefore fear of being killed by the NKVD was one of the main motivations for the Soviet soldier.

I suspect that the revenge theory may stem from Soviet propaganda as part of an attempt to whitewash Soviet atrocities during WWII, such as the atrocities in East Prussia or Katyn. After all, they don't seem so bad if they were done in revenge... The revenge theory detracts attention away from Soviet atrocities to what the Germans may or may not have done in Russia.

I don't think they did it out of revenge. I think they did it as a result of the savagery found in the Communist system. I would imagine that men that are forced to fight on threat of being killed by the NKVD would be likely to commit atrocities out of desperation.

The revenge theory falls flat on its face when one considers that Soviet troops not only mass raped millions of German women, but also raped Russian women who had been working for the Germans as gastarbeiter (see my quote at the start of the post). They also shot ethnic Russians who were prisoners and/or workers of the Germans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Keelhaul

Many of the refugees were summarily executed, sometimes within earshot of the British. The killings at the hand of the Yugoslav forces are known as the Bleiburg massacre.

It wasn't just collaborators who were shot, but Soviet citizens who were prisoners of war or who just worked for the Germans. I suspect that the western Allies go along with the revenge theory to detract attention from their own complicity in these Soviet atrocities. After all, the ethnic cleansing of East Prussia was actually Churchill's idea, and the Americans and English were complicit in Operation Keelhaul.

So with all this in mind, let us go back to the motivation question. Millions of Soviet citizens volunteered to fight with the Germans. The Germans didn't seem to have trouble in finding Soviet citizens to join their cause. In contrast, the Soviet Union never got the ethnic Germans in the USSR to join their cause. Stalin had the Volga Germans deported to Central Asia.

So, the Germans were able to get Russians to join them in their war against Communism, but the Soviets never managed to get Germans to join their struggle. This tells us who really had a motivation problem. In fact, all Soviet military units contained a commissar, whose job was just to ensure the loyalty of the unit (they were afraid there would be more Vlasovs). The Germans never resorted to putting political officers in their military units, nor did they have to put Gestapo units behind the front lines to prevent defections or retreats. SS units (even non-German SS) commonly fought to the death without the need of threats from the Gestapo.

Croatian SS fights to the death:

http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=13

On the 23rd of January 1943, 18 wounded Croatians were flown out of Stalingrad. They were the last Croatians to leave Stalingalive. Amongst these lucky souls was Croatian Sergeant Juric, who wrote and carried with him to safety the Kriegstagbuch (unit war diary) of the 369th Reinforced Regiment, thereby saving for posterity the ultimate memorial to these brave men. The only entry in the diary after January 23rd 1943 is "February 2, 1943, Stalingrad has fallen".

Lt.-Colonel Mesic remained in Stalingrad after January 23rd 1943 with the few surviving men of the Regiment. Most died in the desperate battles at the end.

French SS fights to the death in the defense of Berlin:

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=881
http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=77

A possibly relevant quote from a French volunteer in the SS:

Those who came back alive from the Eastern Front will all praise the German soldier attitude. Let's hear from them: "A German soldier weight 5 or 6 Russians. The Soviet can win only when they have a huge numerous superiority" Francois Gaucher, 30 March 1944.

Not that I agree nor disagree with the above statement, but I just found it relevant given the topic under discussion, especially as it was by a non-German.

So back to the motivation question: Did the Soviet military ever manage to get non-Soviets to fight to the death for their cause? How many non-Soviet volunteers died defending, say, Stalingrad?

 

[frob2900]

@NP300:
Interesting, but I think that belongs in the "Off-Topic" or "World History" forums.

Now back to Praetorians:
If one would want to balance them, there are two possibilities:

• Weaker. You could e.g. make them STR 7 and add back the +10% city attack. They would still be a very good unit.
• More expensive. Increasing the cost to 55 or 60, as mentioned above.

 

[NP300]

@NP300:
Interesting, but I think that belongs in the "Off-Topic" or "World History" forums.

I agree with you. I only posted in response to several posts by some people in the thread. I would rather really not discuss history here. I come here to enjoy a game and discuss a game, but it seems that due to the nature of the game historical discussions keep popping up. Sometimes I can't help but reply when I see some theories, that to my view are grossly mistaken, such as the revenge theory. I didn't reply for a while but I visited the thread to read about praetorians and they kept posting about the issue.

 

[Izipo]

@Frob : for the paratrooper and machinegunner praet.
(btw thanks for the desktop icons also)

It's quite late in my part of the world and this thread is a very nice way to end a great CFC session (I spend more time on the forums than actually playing the game, do I have a problem doctor ?).

I also loved the window-cleaning, coffe-maker one

Always amazed by the serious guys getting waaaay off-topic (this is a joke thread, right?) in between killer variations of the überpraet.

Thank you all for all the fun.

Also some very good ideas gameplay-wise.