Useless Praetorians

[frob2900]

I'm sorry, but I really don't think that is a reliable counter. Machinery comes significantly later than iron working, chances are you will die in multiplayer before you come even close to getting machinery. Also, in early game (multiplayer) there really isn't that much production to devote to spamming ax men.

Axeman 35
Praetorian 45

In combat they are as good as matched.

And you can whip axemen in defence, whereas attacking Praetorians have to march all the way to your empire.

You may not think it's a "reliable" counter, but it's a good bet.

 

[largedarryl]

The problem with that is the praet had the 10% bonus when attacking a city plus any CR promotions it will have. The axemen isn't able to get the CG promotion so they don't make the best defenders.

EDIT: As I mentioned, because the praet is so strong it can simply march to a city through the best defended terain and use its CR promotions to the full advantage without fear of being countered.

 

[frob2900]

The problem with that is the praet had the 10% bonus when attacking a city plus any CR promotions it will have. The axemen isn't able to get the CG promotion so they don't make the best defenders.

True. Combat+Shock is your best bet.

[EDIT] To be clear, I'm not saying MP Romans aren't a problem.. I'm just pointing out a method to handle them as good as possible.

Just remember that you can probably take them out at least with even losses if you are fighting on your terrain. You won't get any war weariness , but your enemy will, so that should also mitigate the situation some.

Once you hit machinery (which should be a priority), the Praetorian ceases to be a major problem.

 

[Gyprsn]

And you can whip axemen in defence, whereas attacking Praetorians have to march all the way to your empire.

You may not think it's a "reliable" counter, but it's a good bet.

I understand that it is probably one of the better ways to go about countering them, axemen may be the best bet, but they will have a hard time doing the job unless your production is higher than the enemies. And, pertaining to whipping axemen, each time you whip you get unhappiness too, and with the new slave revolt special event (assuming events are enabled) that makes it more difficult, and each time you whip you lose production.

So, I agree...It is, in terms of effectiveness against praets, a good bet, but not something that can be depended on to save you without much luck involved.

The overall point being, praets are too powerful, even with good bets.

 

[frob2900]

The overall point being, praets are too powerful, even with good bets.

Hey, I'm not going to disagree with that

 

[largedarryl]

Of course they are too powerful, but the OP of this thread doesn't think so .

What about my idea of changing their strengh to 6 and adding a 25% attack bonus. That is the only way I can think of that would keep them strong, but not unbeatable.

I'm with Gyprsn on this one, the only counter for the praet isn't even really a counter. And the xbow comes so far after the praet it doesn't even fall into the same era.

 

[frob2900]

What about my idea of changing their strengh to 6 and adding a 25% attack bonus. That is the only way I can think of that would keep them strong, but not unbeatable.

Or just up the cost. Would be fair and still keep the "über-Roman" unit, which is historically accurate. The Romans generally owned in the areas where they had full strength legions deployed, but they needed the full attention of the state to put them in the field

 

[Gyprsn]

Or just up the cost.

What cost do you think would fit the unit?

 

[largedarryl]

I think a cost of 55 or 60 should be good.

 

[frob2900]

I think a cost of 55 or 60 should be good.

Yeah, 60 is fair enough by far. That's almost two axemen.

 

[seasnake]

I'm pretty happy with the balance right now, I just beeline to catapults and weaken the entire stack before using Axemen. I just wish all UUs were as powerful in their own way as Praets are.

 

[NP300]

Improving them would be absurd.

That is the most hilarious thing I have seen in Civfanatics. It literally made me "laugh out loud".

But seriously thinking about it, I don't think a 5 paradrop range is enough. That's not enough for them to cross the Atlantic Ocean. How is Rome supposed to conquer the continent on the other side of the world without researching Astronomy?

 

[phungus420]

Most MP latter games I've played wol't let you play rome for a reason. I've seen no other civ restricted like this.

 

[Withouthatred]

I've always found them to be great for early rushes.

 

[Rockstone]

While I haven't played the Romans in BtS, still from my Warlords era I really liked the preatorians. Especially if you want an early war, to kick down you nearest neighbour (I generally start my wars a little later, with the advent of cavalry). Preatorians make good city conquerors.

 

[Innawerkz]

What about my idea of changing their strengh to 6 and adding a 25% attack bonus. That is the only way I can think of that would keep them strong, but not unbeatable.

The suggestion I liked the most - and this is going back a bit - was to reduce them to 7 strength with an inherent 15% bonus attacking cities. This makes them just as effective at attacking cities (8.05), but more vulnerable in the open field. The edge would swing to the Axemen.

C1 Axe vs C1 Prat = 8 vs. 7.7 - and Axemen are easier to build.

It would keep the Prats as a fearsome unit, but not impervious. A Roman player would need to choose between the City Raider promo or add the Combat promo to increase his odds of making it to a city.

 

[GoodGame]

I'd work in an inherent vs. melee bonus as well, perhaps 10%. They should be somewhat vulnerable to archery and siege, though I disagree that skirmish axes should have any kind of inherent advantage over them. Guerilla and dismountable chariots better represent how the Celts were able to give the Romans trouble.

The suggestion I liked the most - and this is going back a bit - was to reduce them to 7 strength with an inherent 15% bonus attacking cities. This makes them just as effective at attacking cities (8.05), but more vulnerable in the open field. The edge would swing to the Axemen.

C1 Axe vs C1 Prat = 8 vs. 7.7 - and Axemen are easier to build.

It would keep the Prats as a fearsome unit, but not impervious. A Roman player would need to choose between the City Raider promo or add the Combat promo to increase his odds of making it to a city.

 

[m9x]

give this guy a break. I can see where he's going. praetorians are already the strongest unit in the game, but they deserve to be.

 

[Gyprsn]

give this guy a break. I can see where he's going. praetorians are already the strongest unit in the game, but they deserve to be.

Praetorians may "deserve" to be strong but they can be strong and NOT ruin games.

Though I think increasing the praetorian's cost might help...I still think that the lack of an early counter will still leave them overpowered. All that needs to be done to balance praetorians is to have a viable counter provided for the early praet appearance, and I think the easiest way to do this is by decreasing the praets strength to a 7, and giving it a relatively specialized bonus(like CR) so they can still be used effectively, but are vulnerable to axemen.

I would (in my perfect civ world) like to see the praetorian being a swordsman with the march promotion or commando even...but that's just me.

 

[Gumbolt]

Praetorians is basically an early macemen without +50% against melee units. I think you do need a mixed stack when you attack any city. If an axemen is defending a city i usually find axemen with CR or chariots quite effective taking them out. praetorians are better for knocking out the archers.

Its hard to say how to adapt the Praetorian without ruining the unit. Change of strengths. +/- against certain type unit. Free promotion. i doubt anyone would ever be happy with it whatever changes were made. perhaps the Romans should just have a special great leader instead. Perhaps Praetorians units could have reduced supply costs to show their resourcefulness? Hmmm

For those that complain about no copper in multiplayers for axemen you could argue the same for praetorians and having no iron. Perhaps better scouting of land for resources would make you aware of the danger in the first place. Pillaging iron resources could help. As i mostly do axemen rushes at start i dont see praetorians as a huge problem. Im more worried about lurking chariots. In most cases by time ironworking has come about i have already started my first war