useless units?

[Paalikles]

In my recent game, wich I won...using my military...I tried using more of the airborn units.

Usually I stick to ground units, but this time I tried several "new" ones. Particularly I found that the helicopter was more or less useless - only two options for possible actions, and a recon mission does not quite satisfy my needs for air control. I also tried out the bomber, wich worked out satisfactory, although the bombing run failed a little too often. But I could not see any action from the "control the skies" option on fighters/jet fighters...

Am I missing somthin? Or should I just check out the civpedia more often. (How I miss civ2 on certain aspects of flight)

 

[Greadius]

I just built my first helicopter... I'm trying to figure out what to do with it. By the time I've built it I'm entirely dependant on tanks & mech infantry... really makes it useless since my best unit that it can move, paratroopers, can be airdropped anyway.

It would be usefull if it had decent range or could move mechanized units.

Bombers I find EXTREMELY usefull. On the offense they can be a pain to move to your nearest city, but on defense they are unbeatable at rendering the offending army useless/susceptible to counter attack.

As far as fighters go, they double as mediocre bombers... air defense is kind of touch and go. Apparently your defense unit can shoot down 1 enemy that attempts a bombing raid. I've had at least one unit flying defense on my cities but the enemy never used it bombers on defended cities except for one time. I shot down an enemy bomber and that was it.
I suppose if the enemy had a large bomber fleet, I would need twice as many fighers. I can't imagine it being better than investing into more ground units and capturing the cities within threat range.

 

[MikeV]

Originally posted by Paalikles
I tried using more of the airborn units.

Usually I stick to ground units, but this time I tried several "new" ones. Particularly I found that the helicopter was more or less useless - only two options for possible actions, and a recon mission does not quite satisfy my needs for air control. I also tried out the bomber, wich worked out satisfactory, although the bombing run failed a little too often. But I could not see any action from the "control the skies" option on fighters/jet fighters

Airborne & heli-borne units are useful for positioning beyond where ground units can reach quickly. For example, in the screen shot below, they can be landed in the mountains surrounding New Nottingham. Even though New London, the city in the foreground, has just been taken, the ground units cannot make it through the hills to get to it.

By landing the airborne this turn, they're in position to attack next turn.

Helicopters have one advantage over airborne: you can (l)oad an infantry unit into it, have the heli (R)ebase (say, to an airport on another continent), then wake the infantry in the heli and have it available to move/attack right away. Very handy in certain blitzkreig situations.

I tend to think of the bombers as "flying artillery." They're useful for wearing down a target prior to the main assault. Cruise missiles are similar, but they can actually kill a target unit on their own.

Fighters are tricky, as they're employment and results are not obvious. The air (s)uperiority mission is a defensive one: the unit attempts to intercept any air units attacking within range on the enemy's turn. To get an air-to-air combat on your turn, you use the fighter to (b)omb a city with fighter(s) defending. Every so often, the defenders will intercept, and one of the fighters will shoot down the other. The winner will sustain plenty of damage, though.

Hope this helps,

 

[Paalikles]

I tend to believe that the explorer unit is of no greater importance.
Although I have never played as an Expansionist, I 've tried creating an explorer once in a while, and have come to the conclusion that the fact that every terrain type is treated as a road is the most appealing aspect of fiddeling with explorers.

I say forget the explorers and let the army march on and pillage.
:tank: (war...what is it good for...hehe)

If one's not an Expansionist (starting off with one,called a scout?), production should be focused on anything but the explorer....

 

[JoseM]

explorers can be used in wars for explore the place before moving there or attacking there... like scout infantry or something...

 

[napoleon526]

Originally posted by MikeV


Fighters are tricky, as they're employment and results are not obvious. The air (s)uperiority mission is a defensive one: the unit attempts to intercept any air units attacking within range on the enemy's turn. To get an air-to-air combat on your turn, you use the fighter to (b)omb a city with fighter(s) defending. Every so often, the defenders will intercept, and one of the fighters will shoot down the other. The winner will sustain plenty of damage, though.

Will a fighter on air superiority try to shoot down an aircraft only if if bombs the host city, or can it defend anywhere in the city's radius? I haven't had much experience in air-to-air combat, since most countries I attack haven't discovered flight.

 

[Carbon_Copy]

Helicopters are actually a bit more useful than one would think. They can airlift troops from any city (not just ones with an airport, and the unit can still move after it lands. The only time I've ever used them was with troop units (infantry, marines, etc.), so I don't know if you can move vehicles in this manner.

Bombers are actually something that I use all the time once I discover flight. They have a much larger bombardment radius than your basic artillery piece, so it's good to have a few in front-line cities to hit the next city you're attacking, or on your coastal cities to take ships down to 1 hp when they're further than 2 squares off your shore. Fighters aren't useful unless the other civ has fighters.

Explorers are actually quite valuable in a war of attrition, they can run farther than any other land unit into enemy territory, plus they can pillage. Even if they get killed when they're stuck in enemy territory after the turn is over, putting that democracy you're fighting into civil disorder for a few turns because you disconnected all their luxuries can be worth it, plus explorers are cheap.

 

[Rain]

I tend not to build fighters as rule; only the jet model. The fighters are a bit too weak and bombers tend not to be frequently encountered before jets appear. I always keep a few in my forward cities on air superiority and for recon. My experience is they are quite effective in eliminating enemy bomber attacks. Initially i was a big fan of bombers, but subsequently i have found i rely much more heavily on artillery. In a just completed emperor game i had approx 160 artillery in my 700ish unit armed forces. I find that the only effective way to reduce cities of 16-32 size is with a heavy artillery strike. Attacking with mod armor or tanks is just way to costly in terms of losses. Developed civs will have jets in their cities so bombers alos suffer high attrition and they have weaker effects than artillery in any case. The only drawback to the artillery is the they require prep to move into position.

Bombers are most useful as pointed out by someone else for weaking units that have intruded into your territory.

I have never used explorers and also avoid building frigates, destroyers, privateers and ironclads as a rule. Admittedly this depends to some degree on the map, but basically i only use navies for coast defence in combination with bombers and recon fighters.

Never used a helicopter nor seen the ai build one for that matter.

I have noticed the ai builds a lot of paratroopers which contributes to its demise generally.

 

[MikeV]

Originally posted by napoleon526
Will a fighter on air superiority try to shoot down an aircraft only if if bombs the host city, or can it defend anywhere in the city's radius? I haven't had much experience in air-to-air combat, since most countries I attack haven't discovered flight.

According to the manual, it uses 1/2 its' operational range.

Since the early fighter (as of 1.17) has a range of 4, that gives it an intercept range of 2. For the jet fighter, 1/2 6 = 3. And the stealth fighter isn't a fighter/interceptor, it's a bomber (so keep those jet fighters/F-15s around).

 

[Dinorius R.]

Maybe I'm missing something too.

In a game just finished, all my jet fighters were stationed in cities on the "air superiority" setting. Several waves of enemy bombers attacked the improvements around those cities, but never once did my fighters attack the bombers.

The squares attacked by the bombers were in range of the fighters (3 tiles). Why didn't my expensive jets get up and cream the bombers? What the hell sort of air superiority is that? I have the impression it only applies to the city tile with the fighter in it, but this seems ridiculous.

 

[Grey Knight]

As with many things, the answer can only be had by sifting through the editor. Fighters have a 50% chance of intercepting non-stealth aircraft, and a 5% chance of intercepting stealth aircraft.

Was the AI attacking with stealth bombers?

Cheers,
Shawn

 

[etj4Eagle]

Additionally like coastal fortresses and ZOC I do not believe you will see the fighters scramble if they fail in their intercept mission. Also I assume that you are using one of the patched game verions (since the original had a non-functional air superiority for the player).

 

[Spectator]

Well, it really depends on your gameplay style. I find that there are too many useless units in Civ3. Although I like Civ3 very much I find It a bit disapointing. Well, this is a list of units I find useless:
-Explorer
-Submarine
-All ships except the Battleship, transport and carrier.
-Marines
-Paratroopers
-Catapults, artillery, etc...
-Helicopter
And I'm sure I'm forgetting some...

Spec.

 

[Zouave]

Originally posted by Rain
. . .and also avoid building frigates, destroyers, privateers and ironclads as a rule. Admittedly this depends to some degree on the map, but basically i only use navies for coast defence in combination with bombers and recon fighters.

Never used a helicopter nor seen the ai build one for that matter.

I have noticed the ai builds a lot of paratroopers which contributes to its demise generally.

I assume you don't build subs, either?

The absolutely pathetic way naval warfare is depicted in Civ III is shown by that. Since TRADE and COMMERCE cannot be attacked - even by getting on trade routes - there is very lttle point in building certain units - unless you want to go to war by attacking an enemy galleon trying to land a settler on a fringe part of your empire. And if that is so you may as well just attack by land.

Yes, the AI seems inclined to build loads of paratroopers. Some are useful and a big pain for the enemy who has to attack them, often in mountains or hills, or face pillage of improvements.

Helicopters are rarely useful for dropping off a unit behind lines.

You can also make helicopeters mobile, give them an attack strength, and allow them to see submarines. They can be more useful that way, and likely more realistic.

 

[Dinorius R.]

Originally posted by Grey Knight
As with many things, the answer can only be had by sifting through the editor. Fighters have a 50% chance of intercepting non-stealth aircraft, and a 5% chance of intercepting stealth aircraft.

Was the AI attacking with stealth bombers?

Thanks for replying to my pathetic cry for help.

I take your point about the Editor. God forbid we should find any real information in The Manual, huh?

To answer your question Shawn, my enemy only had non-stealth bombers. It's hard to believe that my jet fighters would only have a half-and-half chance of nailing those lumbering WWII vintage bombers isn't it? I still don't understand why I didn't see my fighters attempt any defence at all. Lazy fly-boys.

Oh, and I should add I was playing under the much-maligned Patch 1.17f (let them say what they will, but I like stack movement).

 

[Rain]

I assume you don't build subs, either?

Actaully i build one sub per coast region needing defence just so i can enemy subs ~ that way i dont send a coast defence unit on top of one accidently. But basically battleships are it. I stick em in a port ~ when the enemy shows up i bomb or artillery them then send a BB out to finsih it and move back to port.

 

[Nemo]

Originally posted by MikeV


According to the manual, it uses 1/2 its' operational range.

Since the early fighter (as of 1.17) has a range of 4, that gives it an intercept range of 2. For the jet fighter, 1/2 6 = 3. And the stealth fighter isn't a fighter/interceptor, it's a bomber (so keep those jet fighters/F-15s around).

Yes, I have seen my f-15 shoot down enemy bombers which were bombing resource tiles adjacent to the city where the f-15 was on "air superiority" status

 

[damunzy]

Let me add Egypt's UU, War Chariots....or atleast that is what I think they are called since I never seem to be able to build them. I think horses are needed but the damn things are never in my country and by time I can trade with the A.I.(who would rip me off in the trade, BTW) we are pasted when those units would be useful. Please tell me if I am wrong about this UU b/c I am about to go back to Japan, which has a good UU.

 

[chiefpaco]

Originally posted by PaleHorse76
Let me add Egypt's UU, War Chariots....or atleast that is what I think they are called since I never seem to be able to build them.

You can change it so that WCs upgrade to knights. It should work well, because the WC has the same stats as the horseman but is 2/3 the price. That way, you can keep building WCs at a higher rate instead of horsemen. Only difference would be the WC is wheeled, not mounted, so it can't enter the mountains or jungle.

This change was implemented in player1's patch mod. That's the one "rule" mod posted on the official Civ3 site. I haven't played as Egypt with it, but I think it would work. I think he makes a lot of Useless units better there without changing too much else. Check it out. I'm not sure if it's posted at CivFanatics.

BTW, I've yet to build a chariot. I built WCs in my only game as Egypt, but that was way back when I was playing Warlord on 1.16, so I had a ton of time to build them.

I don't know if edited units should count in this thread, because I guess everyone could just suggest: make the [unit] better. However, I thought I'd pitch in on this one, because it should work & endorsed by Firaxis.

 

[Zarn]

I think navies are very useful for preventing rival civs from colonizing other parts of the world. I don't think that archers and longbowmen are that useful.