If you use ships, you can get 3 batleships and 50 surplush shields for a ship full of 8 marines, or 5 AGIES with 30 extra. Boats don't sink because of a frigate the way a transport with marines does. They also cost less suport and unhappyness. Your transport won't be fighting a navy beter than my damaged boat you know...
Useless units
- Thread starter Comrade Pedro
- Start date
Ace
Emperor
Define "Boats"? Am unable to find "boats" in the civliopedia!
Dark Ascendant
Darkness Ascending...
I'm just saying, the role of coastal bombing COULD go to transports and marines. I myself never go that, prefering taking out the cities instead or bribing.
In my opinion, the most cost effective navy is a boat load of spies to sabotage AEGIS and bbs and then send in your own BBs. You get 8 free hits per transport. It's a great way to wreck battleships.
Ace
Emperor
Except that spies do not function against stacked units! A couple of BBs stacked with some Ageis cruisers is impervious to all spies.
Fortunately, the AI lets its navy run around without much stacking.
Fortunately, the AI lets its navy run around without much stacking.
Old n Slow
Emperor
As was hinted at before, a great use for BB is rocket bait. In a GOTM almost a year ago I found myself in a late late bloodlust game where one ai was my size and the other was bigger -- we all had all the techs, and 20K+ funds -- bribery was not a feasable option.
So I sent a BB/Aegis out a few spaces from the port closest to them, sucked up a bunch of rockets, brought the two back to heal & sent out another other pair. Meanwhile, my boat chain of transports (with two Aegis at the enemy end) was able to quietly get in place -- a beach head occurred, followed next turn by the next boat & eight more units. A few turns later the number one civ was smoke & only my name was revered in glory.
Moral of story -- if the ai is making rockets and throwing them away, who am I to disabuse them of their inferior strategy?
So I sent a BB/Aegis out a few spaces from the port closest to them, sucked up a bunch of rockets, brought the two back to heal & sent out another other pair. Meanwhile, my boat chain of transports (with two Aegis at the enemy end) was able to quietly get in place -- a beach head occurred, followed next turn by the next boat & eight more units. A few turns later the number one civ was smoke & only my name was revered in glory.
Moral of story -- if the ai is making rockets and throwing them away, who am I to disabuse them of their inferior strategy?
bellisaurius
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2001
- Messages
- 25
Kind of funny how one has to add units to protect a BB. I guess it's just like a carrier task force where you have an ungodly punch, but you have to pay through the nose to protect such a concentrated target.
Dark Ascendant
Darkness Ascending...
Another reason I stay away from large navies. It's costly to replace fleets, but if you don't, soon there won't be a fleet anymore. I fight mostly on land and have a navy for transport escort rather than combat.
Exactly. That tactic is totally for computer enemies. Mostly because BBs cost too much to bribe, so wreck 'em instead.
It is usualy just as costly to destroy a navy. An AGIES will be very dificult to destroy without another AGIES or BB. The AGIES costs the same and will probably get seriously damaged in the attack, and the BB costs more and will get reasonably damaged. If you face an opponant larger than yourself with rockets, try subs. Subs only work en mass, but they are safe from rockets, because rockets cannot see them. Then you can use your own rockets to attack your opponant's mainland, via the subs, and with luck you will hit a BB in port.
Old n Slow
Emperor
For a BB alone, best tactic that I've seen is the use of mixed forces -- a spy (who can do this from a transport by the way) reaches out & damages half the hit points away as the first action. With the BB mid way to yellow, a stealth bomber or vet BB can finish the task.
Once the BBs are out of the enemy fleet, Aegis Cruisers & smaller boats can be picked up (or ignored if BB are on escort duty) by regular means.
In earlier navies, vet Ironclads/vet DDs can sink the frigates, galleons, caravels with ease; earlier than that It pays better to just ignore any sort of navy action. (Exception -- caravels smacking barb leaders...yum!)
Once the BBs are out of the enemy fleet, Aegis Cruisers & smaller boats can be picked up (or ignored if BB are on escort duty) by regular means.
In earlier navies, vet Ironclads/vet DDs can sink the frigates, galleons, caravels with ease; earlier than that It pays better to just ignore any sort of navy action. (Exception -- caravels smacking barb leaders...yum!)
Dark Ascendant
Darkness Ascending...
Yeah, the problem with fighting at sea is that the att/def of all the ships are the same, which means whoever has the most BBs and AEGIS wins, not the first one who strikes. That's why you have to be sneaky and use spies and subs.
bellisaurius
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2001
- Messages
- 25
That's interesting, dark. I always thought the sea battles, even when outnumbered were always favorable to the humans. The ai doesn't even come close to allowing mutual support between ships. Therefore, by always buddying up like ships in groups of two or more, one can almost always ensure that the ai will have made at least one deposit into the sea, and the human will have one ship left to return to port since there won't be another similar ship around to take advantage of the damage. This seems to be true even when one is quite outnumbered.
Dark Ascendant
Darkness Ascending...
That's true in the big blue seas. The AI uses their ships to prowl around everywhere. Bad coordination. But in narrow straits, they can be somewhat more effective, so I avoid sea battles and go after the port cities, and destroy unarmed transports.
For games in their advanced stages, such as wwIII 1979 scenario(one of my favorites) when trying to invade N. Americans, one of my strategies to clear the defenses is to stack several cruisers on a BB and bring one stack up on each coast just before I invade. Each one will be hit by about 25 cruise missiles, but thats 50 defending units I don't need to desperately take out with mech. inf. in order to take the city.
Funny, I would have said the sub was my most useless unit. It is useful if it has first strike, but its slow movement and easy detection and elimination by AI destroyers and cruisers and planes don't seem to make that possible. And with its small defensive ability, any plane or ship can take out a number of subs before returning to base or running out of movement. Especially because the AI always seems to know where my subs are. I also can't stand the sub's low movement over long distances.
Funny, I would have said the sub was my most useless unit. It is useful if it has first strike, but its slow movement and easy detection and elimination by AI destroyers and cruisers and planes don't seem to make that possible. And with its small defensive ability, any plane or ship can take out a number of subs before returning to base or running out of movement. Especially because the AI always seems to know where my subs are. I also can't stand the sub's low movement over long distances.
Ace
Emperor
The ai always knows where your subs are. That is one of its cheats. But, if you get the lighthouse and Magellan's, you subs' speed is doubled. That makes them more useful. One of the nuke advances also adds 1 to all ships speed. I forget just which one, but I think its fusion power(?).
Dark Ascendant
Darkness Ascending...
Subs are best left in port, to take out cruisers and destroyers that get too close to home. They're nearly helpless in the ocean and almost useless without cruise missiles.
Ace
Emperor
Personnally, I wouldn't, and don't in my games, but I tossed it in as an example. As for "nuc-boosted oar and sail ships", well, if you have not upgraded your fleet....
I only build subs for use as Dark Ascendant suggests. to defend ports by offensive action. I like to have either a destroyer or fighter with the sub for scouting purposes. The fighter finds the target and the sub sinks it. The ai is a creature of habit, and many times it will attack the same port city over and over again, regardless of its losses. I don't usually build coastal fortresses either, but if I can identify a port city the ai in regularly attacking, its in ideal way to help the ai on its way to destruction!
jadelicia
Queen
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2004
- Messages
- 495
I personally like marines for attacking the coasts if I don't happen to have a Battleship or AEGIS cruiser handy. What I find them most useful for is two things:
1) As earlier mentioned: They're good in rough terrain.
2) If I'm taking over enemy cities on an island, I don't have to put any ground units down. I can just take my ships (Cruisers, Battleships, etc.) and get rid of all the units in the coastal cities and then have a transport loaded with marines and take over the city from the water with them. This method works really fast in taking over cities.
Also, with Battleships, I find they're more susceptible to cruise missles if they're alone (likewise with transports and aricraft carriers). I try to keep my ships in groups. For some reason, I find the AI is less likely to attack with cruise missles on a group of ships than a single ship.
1) As earlier mentioned: They're good in rough terrain.
2) If I'm taking over enemy cities on an island, I don't have to put any ground units down. I can just take my ships (Cruisers, Battleships, etc.) and get rid of all the units in the coastal cities and then have a transport loaded with marines and take over the city from the water with them. This method works really fast in taking over cities.
Also, with Battleships, I find they're more susceptible to cruise missles if they're alone (likewise with transports and aricraft carriers). I try to keep my ships in groups. For some reason, I find the AI is less likely to attack with cruise missles on a group of ships than a single ship.
Any unit can take an empty city directly from a ship, so you don't need marines. They do have their time though, but they just arent powerfull enough. If there were a technology of amphibious vihicles (amph. warf. and mob. warf.) that would lead to an amphibious tank or something, I would use that unit, as it would probably have more hp and maby fp in adition to more attack... Explorers have their uses, but unfortunatly they expire when you realy want them. They are usefull for democracies that want to explore. They don't cause unhappyness. Unfortunately, they usualy expire around the time that you realy want them. Unless I'm much mistaken, explorers can take cities, too.
