Uses for 'worthless' wonders?
- Thread starter Softnum
- Start date
Have you not seen the power, unbeliever? so true
And I usually have catapults before the big chicken is built.
Hagia Sophia is situational, but I built it often. It comes in a time where I have no better wonders to build, and I'm often in the mood to get one or 2 of those shiny things.
One I very rarely build is the pentagon.
Of course it's great to have 2 XP for every troop you build. But by the time this wonder is available, I have most of my troops already built (and most of the time, the game is over already = either I'm in a good position and I don't need it, or I'm in a bad position, and 2 xps won't help me much!).
I rarely come to this tech if I'm not aiming at space, and if I'm aiming at space, I won't be needing that many highly promoted units.
Ah, but the 2 Engineer GPPs is nice. As you're going for a space race victory, you should have the production to spare since space race victories require some heavy production but you're not actually building space ship components yet.
ratrangerm
Prince
I've found that wonders only are useless if they don't fit into your strategy. Stonehenge, for example, can be a nice wonder for the right civ and right strategy, but useless for somebody who doesn't really need it (Creative civs are a good example... you get border pops from your trait so Obelisks really aren't that necessary).
Chichen Itza is a Wonder I will grab only if I have the time and resources to spare. It can be good for a peaceful game, even if the AI tends not to try to take your cities and would rather pillage. Perhaps a way to make Chichen Itza is to make the benefit so you get additional defense within your borders, not your cities. Since that would make it much more powerful, it would be a more desirable Wonder.
If that was determined to be powerful, perhaps making it go obsolete sooner (perhaps with Gunpowder) would help balance that out.
Chichen Itza is a Wonder I will grab only if I have the time and resources to spare. It can be good for a peaceful game, even if the AI tends not to try to take your cities and would rather pillage. Perhaps a way to make Chichen Itza is to make the benefit so you get additional defense within your borders, not your cities. Since that would make it much more powerful, it would be a more desirable Wonder.
If that was determined to be powerful, perhaps making it go obsolete sooner (perhaps with Gunpowder) would help balance that out.
OscarWildebeest
Prince
I always build the Chichen Itza, but my approach to war-making is much too defensive.
LucyDuke
staring at the clock
Current game, I grabbed the Great Wall quickly (playing Cyrus, my intention is to generate as many GGs as possible). It spawned a GE right when the Hanging Gardens became available, so he rushed the Hanging Gardens. And then, what do you know, it spawns another GE right when the Hagia Sophia is in play! I had no real use for the wonder's direct effects, war had left me with way too many workers, but come on, who can resist a virtual GE factory? GE#2 rushed the Hagia Sophia. I'm avoiding GPP everywhere else. So this is my use for the Hagia Sophia - an extension of my GE overkill factory.
All this in a game where I'm trying to avoid wonders!
Current game, I grabbed the Great Wall quickly (playing Cyrus, my intention is to generate as many GGs as possible). It spawned a GE right when the Hanging Gardens became available, so he rushed the Hanging Gardens. And then, what do you know, it spawns another GE right when the Hagia Sophia is in play! I had no real use for the wonder's direct effects, war had left me with way too many workers, but come on, who can resist a virtual GE factory? GE#2 rushed the Hagia Sophia. I'm avoiding GPP everywhere else. So this is my use for the Hagia Sophia - an extension of my GE overkill factory.
If you don't need the wonder at all, you're better off settling the GE.
In a good production city, it's a huge difference.
LucyDuke
staring at the clock
True, but I haven't conquered my good production city yet, and GE points are hard to come by so I figured I'd invest in some more. I haven't done the math and it might turn out to be a horrible mistake, but my sig sums up how I feel about that.
I'm just defending the Hagia Sophia's best apparent use: GE points.Although it may prove useful directly. Almost all of my battles so far have been on foreign soil so I don't have to risk pillages. The trouble, though, is that I built the Great Wall and want to use it. If I start to let the enemy come to me, they'll probably generate some work for my workers, and extra speed for those dudes won't hurt.
Quagga
Former Dictator
If I'm trying to get a lot of Great Engineers in a game, then Hagia Sophia is a must. Think of it as a way to (somewhat) counteract the unwanted Artist effect of National Epic. There aren't many ways to get GE points, since Caste System doesn't help.
I think the most useles Wonder to build is the Manhatan Project (unless everyone else is wery far away from atomic weapons). Why would i want to enable the AI to build atomic weapons? It`s better if they spend the resources to allow me to bulid nukes.
LucyDuke
staring at the clock
Isn't that a project, not a wonder? I mean, I can't bring myself to build it either, but IINM it's not strictly the same. No Industrious bonus, right?
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
yes, and no GE rushing either.
ps IINM = ??? i honestly don't know, i'm guessing "if i nuke monty" but i'm also guessing that i'm wrong.
LucyDuke
staring at the clock
Nuking Monty would be one option, I guess.
If I'm not mistaken, though I guess IIRC would've been more easily recognized. I'd rather nuke Monty...
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
ah TYVM for explaining! nuking monty is fun but i generally try to OMGWTFBBQPWN him before the game goes that long, cuz he's, you know, psycho and stuff. i must need sleep, i can't think of other acronyms to throw in.
in an attempt to be sort of ontopic, the internet (but it's a project) is sometimes key in coming from behind, and sometimes worthless. i had a game this week where it was worthless and beautifully handy. future start/highlands/duel map game, just me and asoka. he built it. dude ... there are only two civs in the game, and we both started out knowing all of the techs. building it doesn't gain you a darn thing, even denying me the opportunity to build it gains you nada! but it was spiffy for me, better that than attacking me (it was on emperor which i don't play, so i was terrified the whole time) or racing to alpha centauri. he finished apollo the next turn, i won two turns after that. thanks for making it easy on me buddy.
but that one i don't think needs to be changed. it can be awesome if you're behind, so it's not useless, just very situational.
in an attempt to be sort of ontopic, the internet (but it's a project) is sometimes key in coming from behind, and sometimes worthless. i had a game this week where it was worthless and beautifully handy. future start/highlands/duel map game, just me and asoka. he built it. dude ... there are only two civs in the game, and we both started out knowing all of the techs. building it doesn't gain you a darn thing, even denying me the opportunity to build it gains you nada! but it was spiffy for me, better that than attacking me (it was on emperor which i don't play, so i was terrified the whole time) or racing to alpha centauri. he finished apollo the next turn, i won two turns after that. thanks for making it easy on me buddy.
but that one i don't think needs to be changed. it can be awesome if you're behind, so it's not useless, just very situational.
Re Pentagon: I like going for this. The extra points bring you from one promotion to two for units you make in a city with a barracks, when you're not running vassalage or theocracy (and I normally don't use those civics). That second promotion can be huge. After combat 1 it can get you a medic promition, or a bonus against certain units such as archer or gunpowder.
For units built in your West Point city, it moves you from starting with two promotions to starting with three.
Plus again there are the great engineer points.
For units built in your West Point city, it moves you from starting with two promotions to starting with three.
Plus again there are the great engineer points.
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
let me just say this is really noobish (no offense really, just a fact)
- mech inf start with march. So they need only 1 medic in the stack.
- if you wait for mech inf to start domination or conquest, you'll end up at best with a time victory (except if you are a really fast techer, but usually this comes with enemies teching just as fast= nothing won, since you'll be facing mech infas too)
- Red cross is great, which as nothing to do with pentagon.
- for the price of the pentagon, I can have a whole army and not bother in the least about their promotions.
aelf
Ashen One
Personally, I prefer to have a smaller but better army. It costs less upkeep and gets more done with fewer casualties (less WW). I would also tend to be able to quickly take my objectives and end the war, instead of fighting a war of attrition with green troops. Of course, this is assuming the Pentagon means an extra promotion for at least some of my troops (if only troops from the West Point city get that extra promotion, it still counts).
Pentagon is priced at 1250 - that's 7 tanks, hardly an army. It depends on the game situation, if you have plenty of production and are not planning to go to war immediately, build it and you can profit later. Of course if you need every hammer you can get right now, I wouldn't put it high on the list.
Speaking about red cross, I'd usually try to get it in a coastal city, where transports are built. Other than that, it doesn't really make a difference, it's nice to have when I can afford to build it without delaying military, otherwise it's unnecessary. Free medic promotion is never worth so many shields imo, since you only need one per stack.
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
well duh! you know i'm permanoob! (more on that later)
it gives me a warm fuzzy to build it if the game goes that long, so i do it*giggle*. i don't lose my games (yeah i'll stop 'em if early on i can tell my terrain is rubbish, but i don't lose). which hubby says means i'm on too low a level but of course he's my husband, so what does he know.
anyway, i'm not offended in the slightest. but it does make me wonder--is my sig not enough warning to folks who don't know me as well as you do, that they need to consider the things i write about the actual game (as opposed to my usual blather) with a ton of salt? sometimes my advice does help people. but i'd hate to think someone listened in a case like this when i was doing a permanoob thing and not even knowing it, and wrecked their own game. or maybe having people like you to post too covers it?
100% true cabert, <3, you make me laugh, not offended, please don't misunderstand. but i don't want to ruin people's games so should i change the sig to make it more obvious and less silly?
Quagga
Former Dictator
Can a Great Engineer help you build a whole army? I build the Pentagon if I have one or two GEs saved up. Or maybe if I'm Industrious, which also doesn't help build a whole army.
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