Uses for 'worthless' wonders?

[cabert]

I Agree with you but there are times where the Civics Switch may cost you more then running your current Civics like if you need extra GPP and XP, then that combination is uauslly better.

what happens is I'm running pacifism, and want temporarily some more XPs.
If I'm spiritual, I'll take vass+pacifism.
If not, i'll make do (=no more XPs)

 

[Skallagrimson]

Try Theocracy and Vassalage, it's a much better wartime combination.

There are a couple of reasons why I usually don't include Theocracy:

1) Often I am a non-spiritual civ which hasn't discovered any religions, and the religions of each city are pretty random, just whatever got spread by missionaries from various AI. For this reason I avoid picking a state religion.

2) Post-liberalism that's a 10% beakers hit on each city where you opt to be Theocratic rather than Free Religion.

3) Barracks gets you 3 XP and Vassalage gets you an extra 2, so that new units are built with 5 XP, enough for a Level 2 promotion. With the extra 2 XP from Theocracy (assuming the city building your units has the "state religion" you need for it to work), gets you 7 XP but they are STILL Level 2: so in terms of immediate combat effectiveness, there is no benefit.

4) Often I actually *want* non-state religions to spread, especially in border cities so that they can build cathedrals, mosques, mandirs, etc., and boost their culture and prevent culture-creep from the nearby creeps. The 1 wealth I transfer to the civ owning the shrine is worth it to me being able to boost that border culture by yet another 50% (plus the base culture points for temples, monasteries, and cathedralish buildings). If they spread it in a back-city instead of a border one, fine, I'll spread it to the border and they get 2 or 3 or 4 wealth, but I still get exponentially more culture and that much more ability to widen my defensive zone, and culturally gain access to resources, etc. And of course, eventually those shrines will be mine *anyway*, if I'm playing the type of game I need to play, which includes military expansion even if the main goal is to win space race, for example. So their wealth boost is only temporary anyway.

5) High upkeep for Theo versus low upkeep for Free, that adds up when you're on a conquest roll and adding cities to the empire at a rapid pace.

 

[Skallagrimson]

You should note the cost of the Civics you were running, Vassalage and Police State are High Cost and Pacifism is Zero cost, Pacifism and Vassalage are quite Synergetic in a Specialist Economy, as the negatives of both Civics are canceled out by the positives of the other.

Pacifism has Zero Civic Cost, while Vassalage has high Civics cost
Pacifism has a +1 Gold to Military Support Cost (Military only cost you extra if their outside your cultural boarders)
and Vassalage Gives you Free Unit Cost (Meaning you don't have to pay for your military under that Civic)

You wee running 2 High Civic Cost at the same time (Vassalage and PS) leading to a high Civics Cost which drained your economy, even With a Organized Civ Appearantly.

If you have Problems with Civic Combinations, I suggest playing with a Spiritual Civ and play around with the Civics to get used and to and understand their Benefits and Cost.

What killed me the most was the extra unit upkeep from Pacifism, not the "high" upkeep cost of Police State. A game I started last night has been much more successful so far:

1. Pacifism phase where the beelines are Philosophy and Civil Service, to enable Pacifism and Bureaucracy for wonder-building and GPPs. This extends the effectiveness of a specialist-based economy as well.

2. Military phase initiated either upon attack from an aggressive neighbor, OR... if I've built all the infrastructure I intend to build in 2 or more good production cities, and there's a nearby gimp just waiting to be slammed, AND... my economy's healthy enough to handle the addition of more cities (60%+ slider, no deficit). Here the civics switch to Vassalage and "anything but Pacifism". If I have the Pyramids and have the choice, the government civic is either Representation (if I have a lot of specialists) or Police State (if I don't, or if the need for rapid unit-builds and WW remedies is desperate). Otherwise it's usually Hereditary Rule (happy bonus from garrison).

The goal of the military phase is to get expanded to where I go into the modern era in:

3. Commerce phase. Universal Sufferage; Free Speech; Emancipation; Free Religion; and either Free Market, State Property, or Environmentalism, depending on factors of trade, food situation, or availability of trees. If there is a late-era war, things switch back to military phase until peace breaks out again.

The Problem About War Elephants, the only thing that can truely Counter them before Pikeman are available is the Greek UU (Spearman) that has 5 Str. If your not playing as the Greeks the next Best alternative is you use Formation Promoted Maceman, Which will require 10XP, 8XP for Charismatic Civs and 5XP for Aggressive Civs.

IF you were having a major Problem with War Elephants you could of Pillaged his Ivory or Capture the City that Controlled Ivory to prevent him from building War Elephants.

Usually in an elephant-rush situation, when my economy and civics are properly tuned, I can mass-produce enough regular spearmen such that I can match flood with flood, waves of spearmen fighting waves of elephants, and while I lose about half to two-thirds of my spearmen in those battles (costing me no WW because it's in my culture zone), the survivors promote to Formation, in which case THEIR chance of survival is dramatically improved and I can finally start batting them down at a rapid pace, and become more able to focus on offensive stacks heavy on swords/maces and catapults.

The problem in that particular game was that Pacifism was killing my economy, and the faster I built units, the faster my slider dropped, and the more permanently my tech was stuck in the Bronze Age, while Napoleon continued to research ahead of me. Eventually his stacks switched to Knights, Maces, Crossbows, and Trebuchets while I couldn't even build Macemen yet. I was losing cities without much hope of regaining, so I pulled the plug and took the lesson learned about the dangers of wartime Pacifism.

 

[kniteowl]

The problem in that particular game was that Pacifism was killing my economy, and the faster I built units, the faster my slider dropped, and the more permanently my tech was stuck in the Bronze Age, while Napoleon continued to research ahead of me. Eventually his stacks switched to Knights, Maces, Crossbows, and Trebuchets while I couldn't even build Macemen yet. I was losing cities without much hope of regaining, so I pulled the plug and took the lesson learned about the dangers of wartime Pacifism.

It sounds like you you were playing on quite a high level if your opponent is out teching you in the War Department. What level were you playing?

1) Often I am a non-spiritual civ which hasn't discovered any religions, and the religions of each city are pretty random, just whatever got spread by missionaries from various AI. For this reason I avoid picking a state religion.

On higher levels it becomes incredibly important to pick a state Religion so you can use those Religious Civics (Eg-Organized Religion) and if not for the Civic Usage, it's important for Diplomatic Relations especially on higher levels where it's very Difficult to win games on your own, you need a couple of AI friends you aid you, for tech trades, War etc... It's generally Best to have 2 AI Friends for a Triangle Diplomacy. For more information Check out the War Academy...

Triangle Diplomacy
Conquest-Oriented Diplomacy

So your War With Napolean, did you try to get your Friends or Bribe someone to Aid you in the War? You may of Survived if you had a couple of AI Friends to back you up, unless of course there were only 2 Civs on your continent, just you and Napolean.

3) Barracks gets you 3 XP and Vassalage gets you an extra 2, so that new units are built with 5 XP, enough for a Level 2 promotion. With the extra 2 XP from Theocracy (assuming the city building your units has the "state religion" you need for it to work), gets you 7 XP but they are STILL Level 2: so in terms of immediate combat effectiveness, there is no benefit.

Sorry to be Technical on you... I made the same mistake too, but Units with Zero Promotions are considered Level 1 Units, Units with 5XP (2 Promotions) are level 3 units so I Assume you were talking about level 3 units.

What killed me the most was the extra unit upkeep from Pacifism, not the "high" upkeep cost of Police State. A game I started last night has been much more successful so far:

Pacifism only cost you Gold if your Military Units are outside your cultural Boarders, (+1 gold support cost per military unit) support cost per military unit, is only applicable to Units outside your boarders, so if you've been fighting a defensive war within your own boarders, you shouldn't have suffer any financial lost when your Spearman were attacking those War elephants within your cultural boarders.

 

[jeremiahrounds]

"Pacifism only cost you Gold if your Military Units are outside your cultural Boarders, "

I never knew that... just cause I read it and said that sounds bad... So i never tried it. Now it doesnt sound so bad at all.

Wasnt democracy in civ2 like that[in addition to other things]? Think so. But thats off topic.

 

[cabert]

On higher levels it becomes incredibly important to pick a state Religion so you can use those Religious Civics (Eg-Organized Religion) and if not for the Civic Usage, it's important for Diplomatic Relations especially on higher levels where it's very Difficult to win games on your own, you need a couple of AI friends you aid you, for tech trades, War etc... It's generally Best to have 2 AI Friends for a Triangle Diplomacy. For more information Check out the War Academy...

Triangle Diplomacy
Conquest-Oriented Diplomacy

not always true, but often enough to be considered as a general rule.

Pacifism only cost you Gold if your Military Units are outside your cultural Boarders, (+1 gold support cost per military unit) support cost per military unit, is only applicable to Units outside your boarders, so if you've been fighting a defensive war within your own boarders, you shouldn't have suffer any financial lost when your Spearman were attacking those War elephants within your cultural boarders.

That's not true.
pacifism unit cost is for military unit inside or outside your borders.
The military support cost is there independantly of pacifism.
= you always pay for units (military or not) outside your borders, + you pay for every military unit you have when running pacifism.

 

[kniteowl]

not always true, but often enough to be considered as a general rule.


That's not true.
pacifism unit cost is for military unit inside or outside your borders.
The military support cost is there independantly of pacifism.
= you always pay for units (military or not) outside your borders, + you pay for every military unit you have when running pacifism.

I went back to my current game to check it out and I Was Wrong, My Bad... I've been wrong ALOT more then Usual lately :S. I've always thought it was Unit Supply that was affected by Pacifism and not Unit Cost...

I guess Pacifism is a Big NO NO for War, Unless you don't want to waste turns switching out of it for particular reasons, such as a SE.

 

[cabert]

I went back to my current game to check it out and I Was Wrong, My Bad... I've been wrong ALOT more then Usual lately :S. I've always thought it was Unit Supply that was affected by Pacifism and not Unit Cost...

I guess Pacifism is a Big NO NO for War, Unless you don't want to waste turns switching out of it for particular reasons, such as a SE.

If you have a massive military and a small empire, pacifism is no good.
If you havea a massive military and a big empire, it's debatable. No upkeep is good.
If you have a soso military and a big empire, pacifism is economically better. If you don't earn enough GPPs, it's still not the best civic.

 

[Skallagrimson]

It sounds like you you were playing on quite a high level if your opponent is out teching you in the War Department. What level were you playing?

Just Prince, but that's partly the point: at that level there's less ability to trade up in techs; and it is precisely the hit on TECH that made Pacifism such a sucky choice when there are aggressive neighbors: you're forced to pick a decent defense or beakers, but can't afford both. And you need both.

On higher levels it becomes incredibly important to pick a state Religion so you can use those Religious Civics (Eg-Organized Religion) and if not for the Civic Usage, it's important for Diplomatic Relations especially on higher levels where it's very Difficult to win games on your own, you need a couple of AI friends you aid you, for tech trades, War etc... It's generally Best to have 2 AI Friends for a Triangle Diplomacy. For more information Check out the War Academy...

Triangle Diplomacy
Conquest-Oriented Diplomacy

That raises an issue I've ranted about in other threads. Why does civ ONLY let you know what the borders situation is between AIs, but you don't know if they're cautious or pleased or whatever, with each other? Triangle diplomacy is bound to backfire if you THINK that AI #1 is at odds with AI #2, but in reality they're best friends and all the techs you offered up to be #1's friend, just got shipped over to your worst enemy. Extreeeeeeeeeeeeeeemely unrealistic, and it seems Firaxis has no clue whatsoever what spies are for. Do they really expect us to believe that nobody trained and deployed any spies, ever, before the Industrial era? Come on... if I hear the "playability versus reality" excuse for bad game design one more time, I'm gonna go absolutely POSTAL!

So your War With Napolean, did you try to get your Friends or Bribe someone to Aid you in the War? You may of Survived if you had a couple of AI Friends to back you up, unless of course there were only 2 Civs on your continent, just you and Napolean.

There were 3, and the third one didn't wanna get involved either way. The dreaded "all options red" in the diplomacy screen.

Sorry to be Technical on you... I made the same mistake too, but Units with Zero Promotions are considered Level 1 Units, Units with 5XP (2 Promotions) are level 3 units so I Assume you were talking about level 3 units.

Fair enough. I was just thinking in terms of "promote once, level 1", that sorta thing. What I mainly know is that in the new Warlords the only way you'll ever build West Point is if you have some unit that is in constant combat with godlike luck everywhere on the planet, and never dies. Luckily that's offset by the generation of GGs to allow some XP at the military city.

Pacifism only cost you Gold if your Military Units are outside your cultural Boarders, (+1 gold support cost per military unit) support cost per military unit, is only applicable to Units outside your boarders, so if you've been fighting a defensive war within your own boarders, you shouldn't have suffer any financial lost when your Spearman were attacking those War elephants within your cultural boarders.

I thought it was supply rather than support that depended on outside versus inside the cultural boundary. But if you're right then it may have been the upkeep cost of Police State, as in my previous typical game play I'd stay at Hereditary Rule and the economy hummed along just fine.

 

[Skallagrimson]

Wasnt democracy in civ2 like that[in addition to other things]? Think so. But thats off topic.

In Civ2 Democracy cost you unhappy citizens for having military units outside the borders.

 

[Skallagrimson]

I went back to my current game to check it out and I Was Wrong, My Bad... I've been wrong ALOT more then Usual lately :S. I've always thought it was Unit Supply that was affected by Pacifism and not Unit Cost...

I guess Pacifism is a Big NO NO for War, Unless you don't want to waste turns switching out of it for particular reasons, such as a SE.

It sounded so convincing the way you said it, LOL.

 

[Lord Parkin]

That raises an issue I've ranted about in other threads. Why does civ ONLY let you know what the borders situation is between AIs, but you don't know if they're cautious or pleased or whatever, with each other? Triangle diplomacy is bound to backfire if you THINK that AI #1 is at odds with AI #2, but in reality they're best friends and all the techs you offered up to be #1's friend, just got shipped over to your worst enemy. Extreeeeeeeeeeeeeeemely unrealistic...

Actually, you can know exactly how the AI feel about each other. Go into diplomacy, click "Let's discuss something else", then "What do you think of..." and you can see what the AI thinks of all the other players that they know. You can also see this in another way in more detail in the F4 "Relations" screen - just click on a particular AI leader, then hover over another leader and you'll see all their exact + and - points between each other.

Fair enough. I was just thinking in terms of "promote once, level 1", that sorta thing. What I mainly know is that in the new Warlords the only way you'll ever build West Point is if you have some unit that is in constant combat with godlike luck everywhere on the planet, and never dies.

This is true - using pure combat, and if you are not Charismatic, it is probably unlikely that you will get West Point until late in the game, if ever. However, you are missing one key thing - Great Generals. All you need to do is simply attach your first Great General to a single unit, giving the full 20 XP to them. If the unit started with 6 XP or more, then bingo - you have an instant level 6 unit, and you can build your West Point. This is the strategy used by most good players that I know (and I use it too).

 

[kniteowl]

We're getting quite off topic here, anyways, Worthless wonders, well I'd consider the Red Cross National Wonder quite weak compared to the other National Wonders, I can't actually Find myself ever using it as I can alway promote my Unit to Medic I & II by this point in the game already with WP, Barracks, Stables, GG Instructors & Military Civics and I Don;t require that many Medics in my Stack anyways, 1 or 2 Medics would be enough.

Maybe they should improve Red Cross by changing the Free Promotion from Medic to March and Possibly make it no Unhealthiness City (Similar to Globe theater except it's focused on Health) then it would work quite well with Ironworks and any other unhealthy Production and Military Buildings.

 

[jeremiahrounds]

Ive been finding on monarch that "Failed" wonder builds are the key to keeping the research slider pegged alot higher than it would be otherwise. I dunno if there is a worthless wonder in the sense that I am unhappy if I get it. Cause its score right and plus you get the benefit? Not really a MP concept though. But it seems like going for them all is working out good cause I get all that sweet coin when I fail -)~

 

[cabert]

We're getting quite off topic here, anyways, Worthless wonders, well I'd consider the Red Cross National Wonder quite weak compared to the other National Wonders, I can't actually Find myself ever using it as I can alway promote my Unit to Medic I & II by this point in the game already with WP, Barracks, Stables, GG Instructors & Military Civics and I Don;t require that many Medics in my Stack anyways, 1 or 2 Medics would be enough.

Maybe they should improve Red Cross by changing the Free Promotion from Medic to March and Possibly make it no Unhealthiness City (Similar to Globe theater except it's focused on Health) then it would work quite well with Ironworks and any other unhealthy Production and Military Buildings.

the free medic I promotion you get from RC doesn't increase the needed Xps. So a 2 xp unit can be marching! If that's not enough for you, think about the medic I transports

 

[kniteowl]

the free medic I promotion you get from RC doesn't increase the needed Xps. So a 2 xp unit can be marching! If that's not enough for you, think about the medic I transports

Medic 1 Transports... interesting although I rarely ever use transports, unless I'm playing late game on water maps or domination win and I require to conquer the other side of the world.

Yeah I know Medic 1 is only 2 XP away from March but the point is... that unit doesn't need medic 1 when you already have other medic units, so it's kind of a waste of a promotion, even if it's free.

 

[cabert]

Medic 1 Transports... interesting although I rarely ever use transports, unless I'm playing late game on water maps or domination win and I require to conquer the other side of the world.

Yeah I know Medic 1 is only 2 XP away from March but the point is... that unit doesn't need medic 1 when you already have other medic units, so it's kind of a waste of a promotion, even if it's free.

since it's free, it's not a waste!
It takes nothing away from you.
Medic I + march unit is always healing with the medic bonus too.
A marching army is getting you the win (conquest) a lot faster : no need to stop, keep going!
That's worth something IMHO, so having it for free is certainly no waste.

 

[Skallagrimson]

Actually, you can know exactly how the AI feel about each other. Go into diplomacy, click "Let's discuss something else", then "What do you think of..." and you can see what the AI thinks of all the other players that they know. You can also see this in another way in more detail in the F4 "Relations" screen - just click on a particular AI leader, then hover over another leader and you'll see all their exact + and - points between each other.

Learn something every day, thanks!

This is true - using pure combat, and if you are not Charismatic, it is probably unlikely that you will get West Point until late in the game, if ever. However, you are missing one key thing - Great Generals. All you need to do is simply attach your first Great General to a single unit, giving the full 20 XP to them. If the unit started with 6 XP or more, then bingo - you have an instant level 6 unit, and you can build your West Point. This is the strategy used by most good players that I know (and I use it too).

I have no idea why, but some part of me had been thinking that GG-provided XP "wouldn't count", but I suppose that it was an unfounded assumption, LOL.

Thanks for the help!

I won space race last night as Hannibal, didn't need West Point for that victory anyway. I was on a relatively small continent with just Louis XIV as the neighboring rival, and in my Pacifism/Bureaucracy phase I made sure to be ready to switch over to wartime production at a moment's notice. Louis timed his attack on me perfectly: I'd done the Liberalism-Nationalism slingshot, had been Bureaucracy-Pacifism and built Taj Mahal, and spent my Golden Age doing some remedial research on techs I'd bypassed to get to Liberalism (Monarchy, Feudalism, Machinery), and just when the Golden Age was finishing up and I had 3 cities ready to start cranking out units, Louis steps into the spider's web. He declares war and what does he send in, on the offensive? 1 horse archer and 1 chariot! I nearly fell out of my chair laughing. 20 turns later all his cities are belong to me; switched back over to commerce oriented civics; founded a few more cities to grab some miscellaneous resources like cows that I'd bypassed earlier; and the space race was neck and neck with Ramesses who had me worried for a while there because he beat me to 3 Gorges Dam (which I often use as an indicator of who the front-runner's going to be in terms of production and tech), but my economic retooling pulled me back into the lead. I built Space Elevator, popped aluminum in some random tundra hill I had mined for the heck of it, and it was all good.

 

[Giaur]

I found useless:
1) Chitzken Itza
2) Hagia Sophia (except it's GP bonus)
3) Taj Mahal ... wonder is not so bad, but should be placed little later.
4) Notre Dame
5) Parthenon ... it may be surprising for you
6) Versailles
7) Spiral Minaret, Un. of Sankore
8) Space Elevator ... I did Space Race only twice

National Wonders:
1) Hermitage
2) Forbidden Palace ... not useless but weak
3) Red Cross

 

[Giaur]

@cabert

You are familiar with March. As I remember it can be also acquired when having Combat2. What's happening when unit has C2 and no Medic1 (and has March)?

Can unit heal and attack at the same turn?