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Using the Great General

Discussion in 'Civ4 Strategy Articles' started by Tephros, Jan 25, 2009.

  1. JoeMacUnGee

    JoeMacUnGee Warlord

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    In my mind there's only ONE use for a GG, and it's overpowered. That's the Epic Medic. Add one of these to your stack, and watch it become indestructable.
     
  2. Wodan

    Wodan Deity

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    Obviously, you haven't done either of two strategies:
    1) The Warlord game (use and abuse multiple warlords as your primary fighting force)
    2) The uber zerg swarm (settle GGs to create uber unit production cities and spam them out)
     
  3. JoeMacUnGee

    JoeMacUnGee Warlord

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    I've done the second.

    The first I felt was not the best, as the RNG in Civ IV is anything but reliable enough to count on the GG units surviving. Whereas if you stick two ultramedics at the bottom of the stack and never expose them to risk, you will have a highly-promoted stack of units. When you team them with ample supplies of siege unites, your army's a rolling ball of butcher knives :)
     
  4. Wodan

    Wodan Deity

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    So you've done the second but prejudged the first without trying it and exploring it fully before making a judgment?

    Done well, you have so many Warlord units that the loss of 1 or 2 is not a big deal. And, done well, you'll only lose 1 or 2 per game.

    If you never expose them to risk, they're not ultramedics. You can't achieve an ultramedic without Heal 3 Woods 3, and that's not feasible without exposing to combat.

    Commentary: when you team ANYTHING with ample supplies of siege units, your army is a rolling ball of butcher knives. ;) The point is how do you win when you do not have ample supplies, which you're not on higher levels.
     
  5. Um the Muse

    Um the Muse King

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    What about using your medic chariot as a pillager? That's something that you can't do with your axe. I've never managed to get Woodsman III + Medic III, so I can't say if that is potent enough, but I don't think that I would like to give up that bonus.

    Btw, the idea is that your medic unit isn't doing anything active, just chilling in the back (or in the stack, if you're feeling adventurous or using Woodsman). Might as well have it do something on its turns.
     
  6. Wodan

    Wodan Deity

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    Why in the world would you do that? Pillagers get exposed to counterattack. So if you want your medic chariot to get killed, sure, go ahead and pillage with him. ;) Plus, if you're pillaging, then you aren't using him as a medic in the first place, so what's the point.

    It's potent. Give it a try.

    Are you still talking about pillaging? Me, I use my artillery to collateral the crap out of the defenders, and then my medic (along with my other units) have a cakewalk. So my medic is pretty much attacking each turn, against a weakened unit, which means its chance of dying is as close to zero as I can get it.
     
  7. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

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    I think he meant pillager as part of a stack... presumably a stack of single-move units.
     
  8. Wodan

    Wodan Deity

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    Oh, I see now. My SOD is composed entirely of 1 move units, and I have only one 2 move unit, my medic. So I move my SOD, and my medic can use his 2nd move to pillage the tile. Got it. The 3 or 4 :gold: is a big benefit, makes sense.
     
  9. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

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    Some 2-move units could be used used attacking units on the way. Just sayin... (I'm not getting into the argument)
     
  10. Wodan

    Wodan Deity

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    It's not an argument. Just two rational people expressing opinions about what makes the most sense.

    Anyway, if you have multiple 2-move units, then you don't need the medic to pillage.
     
  11. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

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    Sorry, I mistook your last post as being a bit sarcastic. My bad.
    Oh, and argument doesn't have to have uncivil connotations.
    I know.

    The point could be made that the 2nd move of the medic has not much value if moving within a stack composed mostly or partly of move-1 units, so using it to pillage is a better idea than instead using a unit that is capable of performing some other role in the stack like attacking adjacent units.

    It's so situational though, that I don't see much reason to bring it up in this thread.
     
  12. Wodan

    Wodan Deity

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    It probably was. I had had a couple when I posted it. ;)

    Agreed. However, it does have firmly entrenched difference of viewpoint connotations. Since Joe hadn't even tried these other techniques, I'd think "argument" isn't terribly apropos. Anyway, OT.
     
  13. JoeMacUnGee

    JoeMacUnGee Warlord

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    I mentioned I'd tried the one.

    You're right, I haven't tried the second. And I should have mentioned it's my preference to use them as medics. :)

    No bigs, to-MAY-to to-MAH-to
     
  14. Um the Muse

    Um the Muse King

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    Piece of Mind did an excellent job of defending my position. Though, I suppose he was also right that that difference *is* rather situational.

    Btw, do you keep your medic in your stack? Doesn't it make more sense to keep him one space back (depending on how their road network looks, of course)? I know I defended using a chariot as a medic, but I actually use a spearman (in the stack; this idea was just me wanting to try out something new).
     
  15. JoeMacUnGee

    JoeMacUnGee Warlord

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    I keep it in the stack and give it the March promo so it's always healing my troops.
     
  16. Ghpstage

    Ghpstage Deity

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    March only applies to the unit that has the promotion. Having a super medic with march does NOT cause your whole stack to heal while moving!
     
  17. Nicol.Bolas

    Nicol.Bolas Prince

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    in a game with imperialistick leader, I did indeed try building warlord attack units.
    all of them died at 80%-90%.

    it also made me realize that they are useless - I only sent them into easy battles, which defeats the purpose.
    great medics are somewhat usefull

    so now I have restricted my use to making 1-2 military academies (apart from heroic epic city), and then specialists, distributed for most gain.
    in my last game, 1 of my cities was spitting 5prom units + red cross
    ie basically spitting more powerfull then warlord unit every turn. but it was in late game, so the effect wasn't big, but it could create a small stack of highly specialised units, IE paratroopers or even commandos, guerillas, extra though defenders, strong fighters and bombers
    another city was at 3proms

    to pull 5prom off you basically need
    barracks + 11 GG
    9 GG with WP
    7 GG with civics
    6 GG with pentagon
    - additively from top to bottom, and IMO from easiest to hardest. you can always build WP. civics, not so simple.
    theocracy is easy, if you have built all infrastructure. vassalage is much worse, both free speech, bureocracy, nationhood is very strong in most conflict situations. pentagon you can't really control.

    (at -4 of all these values, you get 4proms)
    (( at -1 if the desired prom is developed from a starting prom of AGG or PRO leader, or some other special cases))
    ((for charismatic leaders, these calculations are also different, but someone would have to remind me the exp levels for CHA))

    can be even less , if you wait for an AI city with settled GG. /since ai settles everything, there is a good chance of finding 1, or even 2 GG settled)

    the key to getting a lot of GG
    the key is to understand of how you don't get almost any GG
    that is by reducing everything to 10% by siege, and then winning at 99% odds. this brings very little GG points.

    if your economy can afford it, let a lot of older units attack at lower odds around 70%. the few wins will skyrocket your GG points.
    obsolete units are good for this, and can also soften the ground for attacks of your modern units and artillery

    anyway, all of this is for fun, when you basically control the game.
    the only potential to actually help you if your situation isn't good, are military academies, or lone GG's settled, that just add the missing 2exp for next promotion from that city
     
  18. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

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    Units promoted along the drill line (excluding siege units) are also effective for generating GG points. (mainly relevant if playing as a Protective leader or Ethiopia)
     
  19. JoeMacUnGee

    JoeMacUnGee Warlord

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    Oh! Thank you so much for clarifying that. For all the years I've been playing this game, I never knew that. :)
     
  20. OneLeggedRhino

    OneLeggedRhino King

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    @Nicol.Bolas That's basically my experience - I never put GG units in harm's way. They only fight at 95% or higher, so a 3-promo unit could have reasonably won the fight at 80% odds or so.

    But all this misses the larger point: Wars are about siege. If you're doing it right, siege damages everything to 25%-50% health, then the regular units just clean up in fairly easy fights. The only time you need a strong attacker is if your siege didn't do it's job (meaning the enemy unit still has close to full HP).

    (For more on why siege is necessary, see the stack o doom guide: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=185838 )

    Siege units are there to die, so you can't put a GG on them. The only way to help siege is to settle the GG. And once you have good siege, ordinary 3-promo units can mop up easily.

    (This is the same reason Charismatic is better than Aggressive - wars are about siege, not melee. See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8824380&postcount=106 ).
     

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