USSR Like it or not?

Do you Like the USSR?

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We can use ethnic cleansing if you prefer that.

red_elk said:
No, no way.
It's much better to invade the evil USSR together with fuhrer than agree to exchange land with them.
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How many countries have historically agreed to deals like that?

wiki said:
In the autumn of 1939, the Soviet Union demanded that Finland agree to move the border 25 kilometres (16 miles) back from Leningrad. It also demanded that Finland lease the Hanko Peninsula to the USSR for 30 years for the creation of a naval base there. In exchange, the Soviet Union offered Finland a large part of Karelia (more than twice the size). This offer was referred to in Finland as "two pounds of dirt for one pound of gold".
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RedRalphWiggum said:
Sadly, when Stalin decided he was going to 'deal' with anyone, they got 'dealt' with, not promoted to high levels.
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Sounds like a good reason to dislike the USSR?
 
red_elk said:
I can imagine documentary movie where some Finnish "hero" is working with Nazis. You won't agree with demonisation of Finland, do you? :)
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The reason why we (and the baltic countries too I believe) worked with the nazis is because no-one wanted the Russians (as I already mentioned, in terms of casualties the ruskies are twice as bad as Hitler).

As for the land exchange thing: the Baltic countries agreed with it: look what happened to them.

Ah hell, I should follow my own advice, so I guess I'm going to have to leave this debate here. Julian Delphiki, I think you're wasting time. What do you think is going to happen? red_elk is just going to admit that he's a victim of the soviet-russian propaganda machinery? That debate is just going in circles.
 
RedRalphWiggum said:
No, but it may well be a good reason to dislike Iosif Stalin
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Dunno dude, if the system facilitated his ascension to power and iron grip on it for nearly thirty years I don't much like that system.
 
Dachs said:
Dunno dude, if the system facilitated his ascension to power and iron grip on it for nearly thirty years I don't much like that system.
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Must hate parliamentry democracy too, cause of Hitler
 
Hehehe said:
Back to the original question: do I like USSR or not? Well no. The big difference between the USSR and the Nazi Germany is that unlike the USSR, the nazis were stopped and since then they have been demonized. I believe this is mostly because of the allies' (US) need to retain their moral superiority, so they've demonized the nazis and somewhat ignored the crimes USSR (they can't just admit that they were working alongside with a country twice as evil as nazi germany, can they?). In terms of pure casualties USSR was (at least) twice as bad as the nazis, therefore I consider it to be at least twice as evil.
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The Nazis demonized themselves. I am entirely certain that Britain or the US would have loved to tag team with a moderate conservative or even radical conservative Germany against the Big Red Machine (whether this would be wise or not), but the Nazis were so out there that policy had to be tilted on its head.

If anything, the thoroughness of the corruption, immorality, and wickedness of the Nazi regime has been underplayed and reduced to blurbs about the Holocaust in schools.

Your "twice as evil" logic is...a bit off. I'm no fan of the USSR, but I'm not sure where more deaths from failed economic policy means its more evil than systematic state sponsored homicide :dunno:
 
Azale said:
Your "twice as evil" logic is...a bit off. I'm no fan of the USSR, but I'm not sure where more deaths from failed economic policy means its more evil than systematic state sponsored homicide :dunno:
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The root cause of the Holodomor is a subject of scholarly debate. Some scholars have argued that the Soviet policies that caused the famine may have been designed as an attack on the rise of Ukrainian nationalism, and therefore fall under the legal definition of genocide. Others, however, conclude that the Holodomor was a consequence of the economic problems associated with radical economic changes implemented during the period of Soviet industrialization.

As of March 2008, the parliament of Ukraine and many governments of other countries have recognized the actions of the Soviet government as an act of genocide.

The joint declaration at the United Nations in 2003 has defined the famine as the result of cruel actions and policies of the totalitarian regime that caused the deaths of millions of Ukrainians, Russians, Kazakhs and other nationalities in the USSR. On 23 October 2008 the European Parliament adopted a resolution that recognized the Holodomor as a crime against humanity.
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Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

The way I see it you kinda prove my point.
 
Hehehe said:
The reason why we (and the baltic countries too I believe) worked with the nazis is because no-one wanted the Russians
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Everyone has excuse.

Hehehe said:
(as I already mentioned, in terms of casualties the ruskies are twice as bad as Hitler).
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What does it mean? Russians genocided 12 millions of Jews? Or responsible in death of 46 millions of Soviet people?

Hehehe said:
As for the land exchange thing: the Baltic countries agreed with it: look what happened to them.
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Which land Baltic countries agreed to exchange?
 
So Mao is twice as evil as Stalin? I mean, we're splitting hairs here but, don't obvious intent and systematic murdering count more than possible genocidal-ish tendencies of the Holodomor? On the evil scale, I mean?

If your going by pure numbers then tinpot killers like Idi Amin, Pol Pot, and Seko Seko are basically ignored.
 
@Azale: I suggest you look into the crimes committed by the USSR, the "possible genocidal-ish tendencies of the Holodomor" are just the tip of the iceberg. Besides the starvation, there's also mass executions, forced labour camps and rather questionable war practices.

The "twice as evil"-thing was just something I threw around. In the end, they both were humanitarian catastrophies. My point is that the USSR should be on the same hall of shame as the nazis, but since history is written by the winners it is not.
 
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