v131.15 Beta

[Txurce]

Oh! I thought you were asking if things had changed in v131.15 beta. Last month people were saying games go too fast, so I raised the cost of techs and construction:

Thanks - I found that entry just as you replied. I recall the research nerf in response to games moving too fast - that makes sense to me - but don't see how slowing production makes for a better game.

Do you?

 

[Thalassicus]

If the game is too fast, increasing everything 15-20% slows it down... seems straightforward.

The feedback was not "there's too many things to build," or something else indicating an imbalance between the rate we unlock new things, and the rate we can build/use those things. The feedback was "the game is too fast." I discussed it somewhat here:

There's only a few rates to consider in Civ, and each has 1 variable ideally suited to adjust it:

• Techs vs Construction
  Controller: tech cost formula
  We should unlock new stuff at around the same pace as we use stuff.
  .
• Policies
  Controller: policy cost formula
  Culture victories to be possible around the Industrial era.
  .
• Conquest
  Controller: citizens killed upon city capture (more is faster)
  Around the Industrial era.

 

[albie_123]

First off, I play on Epic, so what I say might not apply to Standard speed.

Despite the complaints of the game going too fast - which I find reasonable and agree with - the production speed for units, in my opinion, should not be increased as much as for buildings and wonders. One of the reasons I play on Epic is that it allows warfare to be conducted on a more tactical scale, and for each unit to get a greater time before it becomes obsolete, due to the increased time in eras.

 

[SgtCiv]

First off, I play on Epic, so what I say might not apply to Standard speed.

Despite the complaints of the game going too fast - which I find reasonable and agree with - the production speed for units, in my opinion, should not be increased as much as for buildings and wonders. One of the reasons I play on Epic is that it allows warfare to be conducted on a more tactical scale, and for each unit to get a greater time before it becomes obsolete, due to the increased time in eras.

I agree with albie_123 here. I also play on Epic for the same reasons.

 

[Seek]

While I don't play epic, I agree too. If nothing else it will help the less peaceful AIs successfully warmonger; since the recent overhaul peaceful AI pairs tend to run away in science.

 

[Babri]

I checked the beta today & France UA was 3. I have not seen it mentioned in the changelog. Am I missing something ?

 

[Thalassicus]

That was part of the culture scaling in v131.1. Some things I chose to leave unchanged or only modestly increase, when they were very powerful before: artists, policies, French trait, culture bonus on resources, etc.

 

[Babri]

That was part of the culture scaling in v131.1. Some things I chose to leave unchanged or only modestly increase, when they were very powerful before: artists, policies, French trait, culture bonus on resources, etc.

Hmm... What abt Aztecs UA culture bonus. Personally I would prefer that they get production bonus along with culture because they look quite weak compared to France UA (the rest of Aztec is almost as good as France). Later on when G&K is released, we could change it to culture + faith.

 

[Thalassicus]

I believe I doubled the Aztec trait to match the 200% scaling of most culture. Keep in mind it works fundamentally differently by directing the culture to the city with the least culture. It helps with expanding new city borders more than the French version, which distributes culture evenly.

 

[wobuffet]

Wouldn't it make sense to nerf the later, greater sources of gold, but not basic empire-building ones like trade routes?

What later, greater sources of gold are you talking about?

I agree, but am not too strongly opposed to the Trade Route nerf because gold balance is much better now in the current beta!

Yes, the balance is much, much better! Especially with the RA prices, which I think are great right about now (i.e., I'm consistently finding that a tough call how to spend my money! Unless I have an alliance with the tech runaway, but that's another story).

@wobuffet
Trade routes are a national form of -per- pop

That's true, but trade routes do weigh the Capital vs Satellites differently, which could be interesting (even though I don't like exacerbating the crazy levels of Capital-loading already necessary for tall games).

At least one or two of the Gold buildings could definitely use some changes for flavor (i.e., not three buildings that do literally[!] the same thing: "+1, +25% in this City"). For example, something like

Market: +2, +10%, +1 on Luxury resources worked by this City, 2 Merchant slots
National Treasury: (requires Market in 75% of Cities) +15% and 1 Merchant slot in this City, +25% Gold from Trade Routes empirewide
Bank: (no prereqs) +10%, +1 per 3 Citizens, 1 Merchant slot
Stock Exchange: (no prereqs) +1, +25%, no Merchant slots​

could make Gold building decisions much more exciting and situationally interesting. (Heck, I'd probably go all the way and change a couple of the Science, Cultural buildings as well – most of them are pretty bland. Gold buildings, though, are by far the worst offender.)


Oh, and by the way, shouldn't the hammer cost of Machu Picchu be reduced (or the TR income +% increased) in light of the v131.1 Trade Route nerf?

 

[Txurce]

What later, greater sources of gold are you talking about?

I scrolled back a week to find what you're quoting, and couldn't find it. Given the daily changes in VEM, I take no responsibility for something I write prior to that!

 

[Seek]

If you press the little red arrow by the quotee's name, it will take you to the original post.

 

[Txurce]

If you press the little red arrow by the quotee's name, it will take you to the original post.

Thanks, Seek... but it has still lost its context for me.

 

[Thalassicus]

Market: +2, +10%, +1 on Luxury resources worked by this City, 2 Merchant slots
National Treasury: (requires Market in 75% of Cities) +15% and 1 Merchant slot in this City, +25% Gold from Trade Routes empirewide
Bank: (no prereqs) +10%, +1 per 3 Citizens, 1 Merchant slot
Stock Exchange: (no prereqs) +1, +25%, no Merchant slots​

I'd be okay with changes similar to these, all of which are simple to do (~30 minutes total work). I took a similar approach to spicing up Culture buildings with a mix of fixed, percentage, and per-pop bonuses.

One thing to point out I have a guideline of 1 specialist slot per building, so specialist slots accumulate gradually over time.

 

[Seek]

I very much like the flavor changes in wobuffet's suggestion, but worry that some of the buildings will be too weak to warrant building, especially the National Treasury.

 

[Thalassicus]

Specific numbers can be adjusted for balance, as always.

 

[Zaldron]

What later, greater sources of gold are you talking about?

Just as an example from a recent game, a breakdown of my gold gross income:

About 7% from trade routes.
About 10% from open borders.
About 83% from cities.

You could entirely remove trade route and only reduce my gross income by about 5%, or double them and only increase income by about 5%. The only reason I build trade routes is as a side effect of making military roads and when I have the liberty happiness policy. For tall/medium-tall empires trade routes barely pay for the roads that comprise them.

 

[Txurce]

Just as an example from a recent game, a breakdown of my gold gross income:

About 7% from trade routes.
About 10% from open borders.
About 83% from cities.

You could entirely remove trade route and only reduce my gross income by about 5%, or double them and only increase income by about 5%. The only reason I build trade routes is as a side effect of making military roads and when I have the liberty happiness policy. For tall/medium-tall empires trade routes barely pay for the roads that comprise them.

I don't know how many cities you had, but those numbers seem to indicate that roads have lost too much of their economic value.

 

[Thalassicus]

As described in post #35, roads provide bonuses other than gold, and almost always cover the cost of building them.

 

[Txurce]

I disagree, as described in post #35. Roads provide bonuses other than gold, and almost always cover the cost of building them.

Yes.... but 7% of gold from trade routes seems a little low. However, this could be due to having very few cities - and that's why I asked what his empire was like.