v94 - Religion & colonies

[PiR]

Religion

• One of the most immersive aspects of the mod in Civ IV was religion.
  • Founded at the right places and at the right time, most of the time (by right I mean historically correct).
  • Spreading mostly to the right regions.
  • When something very different happened, like a muslim Europe making a muslim USA, it was funny because it was an exception.
  • Approximately the "right time" was achieved because in Civ IV, religions were founded by techs.
  • The "right place" was achieved because the tech was given to a new born civ, or planned to be discovered by a specific civ that would focus on it. It was very hard to beat Jerusalem to the Jewish religion creation for example.
  • Exceptions could come from AI or from the player, but most of the time with great focus: finding a tech before an AI that was supposed to find it first, or through war like razing a holy city cound prevent propagation.
• Currently the mod handles religion more or less like the base game: whoever gets a prophet.
  • This means anyone can make one anytime depending on their priorities.
  • When you complete certain policy tree or wonder, you can get a prophet, and therefore boom! a religion. I got one very easily with England by building a wonder (I think it was Hagia Sophia) but any European civ could also use its starting civics to complete the Liberty tree and get a great person of its choice and do the same. Completing a tree is an opportunity cost though, so it seems OK to me.
  • I feel there should be more emphasis on some clusters like Arabia versus Christians.

Colonies

• Civ V is know for an incentive towards playing "tall" rather than "wide". Many skilled players agree the most efficient strategy is to use the Tradition tree and limit to 4 cities to enjoy the bonus that these cities will get from that tree.
• This is a huge stop from making colonies. The 3% increase in science costs is OK, but the happiness cost is too heavy. Even at the start of a game, for a European civ to get 3-4 cities, happiness becomes negative with a lot of consequences.
• Currently Huns and barbarians can do massive damage to civilizations. Rome, Greece, Egypt, India can be entirely wiped out. While Europe will be resettled and North Africa might be, India is more unclear. If we count on European power to settle again India (and later, hope to see India respawn), they should be more inclined to do so.

 

[Nikolai1998]

More elusive problem with religions is that old ones are more attractive because of better beliefs bonuses. So me as a player (f.e. for Russia) would wanted to have an old religion (f.e. Hinduism) in my cities rather than new ones. But there was opposite behavior in real history - new religions are more like 'improvements' over the old ones.
First what comes to mind is to make more attractive beliefs unavailable before some era (or before researching some tech). For example, make an ability to build mosque available only if you found a religion (or make reformation) in medieval and etc. I don't know how difficult to implement it from technical side, but it would be good for roleplay.

 

[El Bogus]

Civ V is know for an incentive towards playing "tall" rather than "wide". Many skilled players agree the most efficient strategy is to use the Tradition tree and limit to 4 cities to enjoy the bonus that these cities will get from that tree.

I feel like this is somehow less true for RFC (Civ 5). Since the cities grow much slower it is more beneficial for you to play with more than 4 cities. The Independence tree is also much more desirable because of the cheaper settlers in your capital. The free Great Person is also very nice. I think this change is also due to accelerated access to Social Policies and the fact that new cities have prebuilt buildings (making the Tradition tree less desirable).

 

[PiR]

the fact that new cities have prebuilt buildings (making the Tradition tree less desirable).

totally agree, this completely counters the free building for 4 cities - I take that part back

 

[Pawlak]

Perhaps using puppet mechanics could be good for colonies? If there is a way to code ability to make a city you founded into a puppet that is. This way you could found a city you don't really care about in order to get lux resources and then limit it's population (default money focus that puppets get, and not building any farms there).

 

[Jet]

• This is a huge stop from making colonies. The 3% increase in science costs is OK, but the happiness cost is too heavy. Even at the start of a game, for a European civ to get 3-4 cities, happiness becomes negative with a lot of consequences.

I thought the per-city tech cost increase was 16% in this mod (I believe it was in v88). Has that changed?

 

[PiR]

You're probably right, Rhye must have increased the base game %.

EDIT: looks like it's 14%?

Playing Spanish, I found happiness could be managed through a powerful religion if you can found one and propagate it. But it doesn't fit very well the european powers of the time. Maybe the need a follower bonus for a christian religion that would help expanding.

 

[PiR]

Since the cities grow much slower it is more beneficial for you to play with more than 4 cities.

However, many wonders require you to have a certain building in all your cities. The more cities you have the more difficult this becomes.
And some wonders seem key to progressing in the game, like National college.


After my Spanish run, I'm less affirmative about the difficulty of raising happiness for a big empire. This might just be the start of the late civs that is weird, like here for the USA:

An empty India is a bit sad when you're travelling and discovering the world. I guess it's easier to settle for colonists though.

 

[Pawlak]

However, many wonders require you to have a certain building in all your cities. The more cities you have the more difficult this becomes.
And some wonders seem key to progressing in the game, like National college.


After my Spanish run, I'm less affirmative about the difficulty of raising happiness for a big empire. This might just be the start of the late civs that is weird, like here for the USA:


An empty India is a bit sad when you're travelling and discovering the world. I guess it's easier to settle for colonists though.

Yeah I am playing Germany now, and it seems OK. I guess that ancient era might be harder, especially Europe, so Rome, may be hard with no happiness buildings yet and little lux resources. Germany is fine though, aside from very beginning it was not a problem for me so far.