Various novice questions

[Jokemaster]

Supplies in parenthesis are ''blocked'' and can't be used for caravan deliveries. The only commodity that does not block is hides. Every 16 turns the list of supply and demand is reprocessed: that is called the ''Solo Cycle'' If a van is built, its supply is blocked (except if the van contains hides) and if that van is delivered, the commodity is still blocked until next reprocessing. It is possible to force a reprocessing of the list using the Wonder Bread trick.

It works like this: For this to work, you need to have a blocked commodity that does not support a van and also does not support a trade route. (Only way I can think of achieving that is by having a city with 3 trade routes. The list is reprocessed, you build another van and deliver it to a high enough trade city to create (replace the weakest one) a new ongoing trade route. It also requires that the blocked supply that has been reprocessed (before the 4th trade route is established) is not your weakest trade route, because that trade route will be replaced and you will still end up with 3 supplied goods that are used in your 3 routes.

You build a food van. You start a wonder and contribute a food van to this wonder. This will cause a reprocessing of the supply list. You now switch back to freight and finish it ASAP.



And your goal for research? It depends, but as a general rule of thumb, what I do is go for Monarchy, then Trade, then Monotheism. Afterwards I research Republic. I then go for Chemistry, Economy and Theology (could delay Theo if I'm running a trade game) as a setup for Explosives, Democracy and Magnetism. Afterwards, I try to fill up the remaining of the pre-industrialization techs, trying to delay Chivalry as much as possible (even if it means researching Fundamentalism!) And now, and that's where I tend to differ from other strategies, I take some time to railroad my continents, grow my cities, and I cut my science to zero while jacking up the tax and luxury rates. (I used to do that prior to discovering Industrialization, but thinking again about it I think I might do it after Electronics and Genetic Engineering from now on) I then go for the Automobile and Computers, trying to delay Flight as much as possible. I then fill up the remainder of the tech tree.

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

Thank you all.

Supplies in parenthesis are ''blocked'' and can't be used for caravan deliveries. The only commodity that does not block is hides. Every 16 turns the list of supply and demand is reprocessed: that is called the ''Solo Cycle'' If a van is built, its supply is blocked (except if the van contains hides) and if that van is delivered, the commodity is still blocked until next reprocessing. It is possible to force a reprocessing of the list using the Wonder Bread trick.

It works like this: For this to work, you need to have a blocked commodity that does not support a van and also does not support a trade route. (Only way I can think of achieving that is by having a city with 3 trade routes. The list is reprocessed, you build another van and deliver it to a high enough trade city to create (replace the weakest one) a new ongoing trade route. It also requires that the blocked supply that has been reprocessed (before the 4th trade route is established) is not your weakest trade route, because that trade route will be replaced and you will still end up with 3 supplied goods that are used in your 3 routes.

You build a food van. You start a wonder and contribute a food van to this wonder. This will cause a reprocessing of the supply list. You now switch back to freight and finish it ASAP.

I'm not sure if I understand all this, I will have to try it some time.

All wonders are built so I can't use the Wonder Bread trick. (The two last to be built was Apollo and Manhattan. I didn't care to build them myself because it's a free ride when someone else builds them.)

And your goal for research? It depends, but as a general rule of thumb, what I do is go for Monarchy, then Trade, then Monotheism. Afterwards I research Republic. I then go for Chemistry, Economy and Theology (could delay Theo if I'm running a trade game) as a setup for Explosives, Democracy and Magnetism. Afterwards, I try to fill up the remaining of the pre-industrialization techs, trying to delay Chivalry as much as possible (even if it means researching Fundamentalism!) And now, and that's where I tend to differ from other strategies, I take some time to railroad my continents, grow my cities, and I cut my science to zero while jacking up the tax and luxury rates. (I used to do that prior to discovering Industrialization, but thinking again about it I think I might do it after Electronics and Genetic Engineering from now on) I then go for the Automobile and Computers, trying to delay Flight as much as possible. I then fill up the remainder of the tech tree.

Why do you like to wait with Chivalry? The game file doesn't say that it makes something obsolete.
Fundamentalism works really well for me, I tried it and like the benefits so much that I never swithed to republic/demo. It's bad for science, but I send out my spies to "research" for me. I like to build things and the unit support is really nice.


More questions on trade:
I try to make good trade routes and I find that the game is not doing a good job with helping me achieve this. It tells me that I make more profit if I send a commodity to a city that demands that commodity. So I tried to send the vans to the city on the top of the list.
But I just found out that I can make more money by sending the van to a large distant city that does not demand the commodity at all.
Maybe the game is usually right, but I don't know yet.

 

[Magic_gorter]

If you look at the demand list it's not a list where the best city is at top. It's just a list where the oldest city is mentioned first and the newest last. So you have to look at the size of the cities and try delivering to the biggest city or even better the city with the most arrows (by workers IIRC) and to a far away city.

Meaning that delivering to a city size 10 with 10 arrows is not giving a better revenue then delivering to a city size 8 with 20 arrows if both cities are at the same distance of the home city.

If the first city is far away and the 2nd is very close then you might get a better revenue when you deliver to the first city.

So always look at the size of the city and the distance.

So if you are able to build a super science city (SSC) (if you don't know what this is you could read all about it in Solo's early landing guide) this city can give you a lot revenue by delivering vans to and from that city.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Why do you like to wait with Chivalry? The game file doesn't say that it makes something obsolete.

The reason has to do with rushbuilding. When rushbuilding units, shield costs don't increase linearly. That is, rushing 20 shields costs more than rushing 10 shields twice (unlike buildings and Wonders, where the cost per shield is constant). This means that the best way to rush units is to rush the cheapest unit, then switch to the next most expensive unit, and continue doing that until you have completed the unit (or, you can leave the last 10 shields to be completed by the city).

For example, if you want to rush a caravan, the best way to do it is to rush a warrior, then a phalanx/horseman, then a diplomat/archer/explorer, then a settler, and then the caravan. It will cost substantially more to rush the unit directly (I don't remember the cost to rush 50 shields directly).

Unfortunately, the 10 shield and 20 shield units are eventually made obsolete (except for the Fanatic, but it is only available in Fundamentalism), so you are eventually forced to rush the first ~30 shields directly (if the box is completely empty, rushing a temple/barracks and then switching to a diplpmat is actually cheaper). Rushing 30 shields at a time costs 105 gold, whereas rushing 20 and then 10 costs 60+25=85 gold. Depending on the number of shields in the production box at the time of the rushbuild, having the 20 shield horseman unit available can save you between 10 and 20 gold per rushbuild (and 40 if you are making a rushbuild with an empty box). If you are running a large nation, this can add up, and thus the reason for delaying chivalry (since it removes the last 20 shield unit if you are playing democracy).

Fundamentalism works really well for me, I tried it and like the benefits so much that I never swithed to republic/demo. It's bad for science, but I send out my spies to "research" for me. I like to build things and the unit support is really nice.

Fundamentalism is certainly the easiest government to play. There are a lot of aspects to civ 2, and if you are still trying to figure them all out, Fundamentalism can eliminate some of your worries.

Republic and, to a much greater extent, Democracy require much more attention in order to be successful. In particular, you have to pay attention to how you move your military units, and keep an eye on your cities in general. It does have some fantastic advantages, however, such as the extra trade (particularly nice for increasing caravan payouts) and the ability to grow a city by 1 citizen per turn by making it celebrate We Love the President Day.

If you want examples of successful democracies, check out the succession games in the Stories and Tales section. Most games end up running a massive trading game in democracy.

It works like this: For this to work, you need to have a blocked commodity that does not support a van and also does not support a trade route. (Only way I can think of achieving that is by having a city with 3 trade routes.

Wonder Bread is most useful if you are playing with caravan rehoming. Then you will get lots of cities with blocked commodities that will be restored when delivering a caravan. A similar situation can occur if a caravan supported by the city was destroyed by the AI.

 

[Peaster]

More questions on trade:
I try to make good trade routes and I find that the game is not doing a good job with helping me achieve this. It tells me that I make more profit if I send a commodity to a city that demands that commodity. So I tried to send the vans to the city on the top of the list. But I just found out that I can make more money by sending the van to a large distant city that does not demand the commodity at all.
Maybe the game is usually right, but I don't know yet.

Good question. Trade can get pretty complicated, and even some of the best players don't understand it well (meaning they disagree with me!). Here are the main points:

1) Everything you do right doubles your bonuses, roughly. So you should try hard to do ALL of these for each van you make; demanded, sent overseas, to an AI or barb city, at least 20 tiles away, maximize city arrows before delivery. You do the last mainly by moving city workers and celebrating (in Fundy/Mon...). You should average over 125g per van this way (and much more later in the game). Vans under 60g or so are losses.

2) Produce Hides vans as much as possible, and you will not have to worry about getting blocked. If you cannot, then make lots of cities.

3) Bonuses (the gold you get immediately) is usually much more valuable to you than the small ongoing routes (the +3g per turn, or whatever). All else equal, it is nice to have 2-3 routes per city eventually, because that helps the city celebrate.

4) Make lots of boats asap, roughly in balance with the number of your vans (and cities). I aim for about 30 each by 300AD, probably much more than most players. Speed of delivery is almost as important as the other factors. Good luck!!

 

[timtofly]

A similar situation can occur if a caravan supported by the city was destroyed by the AI.

If you loose that caravan before 3 "strong" trade routes are formed. You really want to have 3 strong routes formed usually with the same strong city, before you send a food van to a city for growth. In GOTM rehoming is not allowed, so you have to be careful.

@ Peaster I agree that Hides are a great way to go, but I think that trading with the same city for all routes has it's own merit. You are only boosting one AI city (a Pet City), thus making it the strongest. Preferably one that you will not need if you decide to take over all of the other cities of that AI. Once you get your 3 strong routes established, the 16 turn cycle will free up some trade in "some" cities. I have never gotten down to solo's level. I usually just take what I get. These routes can go for demanded goods of the AI and freeing up your own city's routes. The trick is to balance between the maximum trade of a delivery and lowering the strength of the city to not upset your established routes.

Not trying to correct any one, just adding my experiences.

@ Fundamentalism, I realize that science is the balancing factor or one could "run away" with it. To me, unless you get SoL really early, it does not seem to matter that much. With lots of huge cities and big trade, especailly trade alone can get you enough beakers per turn, even if science is cut in half. Of course history wise fanatics are at the catch up point now.

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

If you look at the demand list it's not a list where the best city is at top. It's just a list where the oldest city is mentioned first and the newest last. So you have to look at the size of the cities and try delivering to the biggest city or even better the city with the most arrows (by workers IIRC) and to a far away city.

I see. I found it odd that some small AI cities could offer better trade than some larger ones, but at first I figured it was a random factor that caused a higher demand in those smaller cities. Later I found out that this simply didn't add up because some vans to the top city made poor revenue.

The order in wich cities are listed is sorted out; it is age.
But I still don't get why large cities supposedly doesn't demand coal (example) when they de facto demands coal. They are not on the list but they can be better trade partners than any one of the cities that are on the demands list.

Is the "demand" aspect of the game broken? It doesn't do anything but confuse me.

So always look at the size of the city and the distance.

I'll do that and not bother about the demands list.

The reason has to do with rushbuilding. When rushbuilding units, shield costs don't increase linearly. That is, rushing 20 shields costs more than rushing 10 shields twice (unlike buildings and Wonders, where the cost per shield is constant). This means that the best way to rush units is to rush the cheapest unit, then switch to the next most expensive unit, and continue doing that until you have completed the unit (or, you can leave the last 10 shields to be completed by the city).

For example, if you want to rush a caravan, the best way to do it is to rush a warrior, then a phalanx/horseman, then a diplomat/archer/explorer, then a settler, and then the caravan. It will cost substantially more to rush the unit directly (I don't remember the cost to rush 50 shields directly).

I didn't know that unit's shield price isn't linear! I don't rush alot, and when I do it's only to save one turn at the end of the project. A town might produce 14 shields and 18 is needed to complete, then I rush it and save one turn.

The few "big" rushes I do are normally costly buildings that I need fast, for instance SDI defense.

Maybe I'll change as I get more experience, but I generally think that things should be built the ordinary way. Isn't that how the AI do it anyway?

Wonder Bread is most useful if you are playing with caravan rehoming. Then you will get lots of cities with blocked commodities that will be restored when delivering a caravan. A similar situation can occur if a caravan supported by the city was destroyed by the AI.

Caravan rehoming? But I can not change home city of vans. I have tried and a message told me it wasn't allowed.
It's worth sacrificing one caravan if it resets the "Solo Cycle" (why do you call it that?). I'll try it.

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

Good question. Trade can get pretty complicated, and even some of the best players don't understand it well (meaning they disagree with me!). Here are the main points:

1) Everything you do right doubles your bonuses, roughly. So you should try hard to do ALL of these for each van you make; demanded, sent overseas, to an AI or barb city, at least 20 tiles away, maximize city arrows before delivery. You do the last mainly by moving city workers and celebrating (in Fundy/Mon...). You should average over 125g per van this way (and much more later in the game). Vans under 60g or so are losses.

2) Produce Hides vans as much as possible, and you will not have to worry about getting blocked. If you cannot, then make lots of cities.

3) Bonuses (the gold you get immediately) is usually much more valuable to you than the small ongoing routes (the +3g per turn, or whatever). All else equal, it is nice to have 2-3 routes per city eventually, because that helps the city celebrate.

4) Make lots of boats asap, roughly in balance with the number of your vans (and cities). I aim for about 30 each by 300AD, probably much more than most players. Speed of delivery is almost as important as the other factors. Good luck!!

1) And preferrably to a city on another continent or island. In my game, four of the nations are on one very big continent that is technically one continent, but it practically are three continents. Probably it is one continent trade vise. There are also populated islands of various sizes.

3) The income per turn is just as important in the long run. A few times I got more than 1k gold as bonus, but more often it's around 100-150. The revenue per turn for the average route is about 12, so that means the bonus is not so significant.

4) I completely failed at speed! I was in the space age when I began sending vans around on a large scale. I delayed it because of war, the AI loves to let Cruise Missiles rain down on anything that moves. Except AEGIS, I use them as protection now, they are not so often attacked.

If you loose that caravan before 3 "strong" trade routes are formed. You really want to have 3 strong routes formed usually with the same strong city, before you send a food van to a city for growth. In GOTM rehoming is not allowed, so you have to be careful.

I don't understand rehoming?

@ Peaster I agree that Hides are a great way to go, but I think that trading with the same city for all routes has it's own merit. You are only boosting one AI city (a Pet City), thus making it the strongest. Preferably one that you will not need if you decide to take over all of the other cities of that AI.

So the AI is earning money on my trade routes? In reality it's obvious, but I didn't think of it in the game. Anyway - why is it better to have a "pet city" unless you plan to take over the world?

Once you get your 3 strong routes established, the 16 turn cycle will free up some trade in "some" cities. I have never gotten down to solo's level. I usually just take what I get. These routes can go for demanded goods of the AI and freeing up your own city's routes.

To "free up" routes, what does it mean?

The trick is to balance between the maximum trade of a delivery and lowering the strength of the city to not upset your established routes.

I'm sorry but I do not really understand this. Lowering the strenght? Upset routes?



Again I really appreciate the effort you guys make in explaining and discussing.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

But I still don't get why large cities supposedly doesn't demand coal (example) when they de facto demands coal. They are not on the list but they can be better trade partners than any one of the cities that are on the demands list.

Is the "demand" aspect of the game broken? It doesn't do anything but confuse me.

Quote:
So always look at the size of the city and the distance.

I'll do that and not bother about the demands list.

The only impact that "demand" has on a trade route is that it multiplies the delivery bonus by 2 to 4 (depending on the commodity). This means that delivering a demanded commodity to that city will pay more than delivering a non-demanded commodity, all other things being equal. If there is a significant difference in the trade between 2 cities, or in their distance from the source of the caravan, the non-demanding city might, as you discovered, pay more. The fact is, however, that that "big and distant" city will pay even more for commodities that it demands. The supply and demand advisor is not used to give you an estimate for payout, just to tell you where you can get the demand bonus.

If you are choosing between 2 cities, one that demands a commodity, and the other with much larger base trade, delivering to the demand city is likely to be better if the demand city is farther away and/or the source city has a high base trade (relative to the cities under consideration). These factors will diminish the importance of the extra trade of the larger city in the delivery calculation, thus giving the demand multiplier a bigger impact on the delivery bonus.

I didn't know that unit's shield price isn't linear! I don't rush alot, and when I do it's only to save one turn at the end of the project. A town might produce 14 shields and 18 is needed to complete, then I rush it and save one turn.

Depending on the amount of money you have, a better strategy is to use a different (lower cost) unit or building for the rushbuy, and let the city complete the last few shields. If you are going to waste a few shields during construction, change the city production squares to food or trade on the last turn (or couple turns).

Maybe I'll change as I get more experience, but I generally think that things should be built the ordinary way. Isn't that how the AI do it anyway?

I think I remember reading somewhere that the AI is given shields from time to time. The amount of rushbuilding you should do will depend on your cashflow. If you have very little cash, you shouldn't rush too much. If you have a lot of it, then you should be spending it.

Caravan rehoming? But I can not change home city of vans. I have tried and a message told me it wasn't allowed.

You can do it from inside the city display. The message you receive when pressing "h" was the basis for disallowing the strategy in the GOTM. It can be a quite powerful strategy, and it is worth trying. The last time I've used it was playing as the Neutrals in the WWII scenario. That was also the last time I remember using Wonder Bread.

It's worth sacrificing one caravan if it resets the "Solo Cycle" (why do you call it that?). I'll try it.

It's called the Solo Cycle because the player who discovered it (along with how terrain impacts the supply and demand for the city) had the screen name "Solo" at the Apolyton website.

 

[Peaster]

The average player would do well to ignore everything about ongoing routes and focus on getting lots of big bonuses early in the game. Also, it's easy to get bogged down in game mechanics like the solo cycle (but if you enjoy that stuff, knock yourself out!).

 

[Prof. Garfield]

So the AI is earning money on my trade routes? In reality it's obvious, but I didn't think of it in the game. Anyway - why is it better to have a "pet city" unless you plan to take over the world?

The AI benefits from the ongoing route, usually to the same extent that you do, unless you have some sort of multiplier (like Superhighways or a critical path road/railroad -- don't worry about the latter, it's very confusing how it works). They don't get the gold/science bonus that you get when you deliver the caravan.

If you limit the number of cities to which you deliver, you get the benefits of all the trade routes you make, while the AI only gets the top 3 for each city you deliver to. Also, if you deliver to a small number of cities, if you conquer, you can leave the few cities that you delivered to, and therefore not suffer the 50% penalty for domestic routes that you will get when you take AI cities that you have traded with.

I don't worry about the trade routes the AI gets. Even if you regard the AIs as enemies, with the delivery bonus, it is like allowing your enemy to get a machete if you get a machine gun; usually you will come out better off in the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timtofly
Once you get your 3 strong routes established, the 16 turn cycle will free up some trade in "some" cities. I have never gotten down to solo's level. I usually just take what I get. These routes can go for demanded goods of the AI and freeing up your own city's routes.

To "free up" routes, what does it mean?


Quote:
Originally Posted by timtofly
The trick is to balance between the maximum trade of a delivery and lowering the strength of the city to not upset your established routes.

I'm sorry but I do not really understand this. Lowering the strenght? Upset routes?

I think timtofly is referring to machinations designed to keep demand unblocked in cities (so you can deliver multiple demanded caravans to the same city) and to make a city supply commodities again, after it has built several caravans.

These are hardly "novice" topics. In fact, I don't usually put much attention to that sort of thing.

All the knowledge I really use is: "the terrain and the city population impact supply and demand." (Technologies do as well). If I'm changing the terrain around a city, or, much more likely, the city is growing very fast, I will often rushbuy a caravan when the city is small, so that I have that commodity when supply changes (particularly if it is something in high demand).

1) And preferrably to a city on another continent or island. In my game, four of the nations are on one very big continent that is technically one continent, but it practically are three continents. Probably it is one continent trade vise. There are also populated islands of various sizes.

That's correct; a single landmass is a continent for the purposes of trading. In that situation, the best strategy will probably be to ship "mainland" caravans/freight (if you are on that continent) to the islands, and island freight to the "mainland." On the World Map, Europe, Asia and Africa are all one continent; this has no small impact on trading strategy.

3) The income per turn is just as important in the long run. A few times I got more than 1k gold as bonus, but more often it's around 100-150. The revenue per turn for the average route is about 12, so that means the bonus is not so significant.

Opinions on this vary from player to player. My opinion is similar to Peaster's. It is usually better to focus on the delivery bonus than the ongoing route. The only exceptions I can think of are if you want some extra trade in a city (for the luxuries, if you want to get it to celebrate, or at least keep order, or for more science in the SSC); if at all possible, use junk commodities (no good demand cities) to make these routes.

The reason for this is that, as you develop skill in civ 2, you can put the bonus money to work immediately, buying whatever you need, whereas you need to wait for a small stream of extra arrows each turn if you focus on the trade route bonus. Also, as you get more experience trading, your bonus payments will be somewhat larger on average. One of the most satisfying things to do is to use the bonus money to rush another caravan or two and get more bonuses. Also, you want to compare the difference in the delivery bonus and trade route arrows between cities when choosing where to deliver, not the total number of arrows or the total bonus. This is crucial, since delivering to a demanding, slightly smaller, city, will probably only change the trade route arrows by 1 or 2, but will alter the bonus payment significantly.

If you want a very crude way to estimate the present value of an ongoing trade route, use this formula:

A*100/I

Where

A is the number of extra trade arrows
I is the percent discount rate per turn (the Interest Rate) eg 7% = 7

I say this is crude because it estimates the value of the extra arrows forever, whereas a civ game is finite in length. When comparing to the extra delivery bonus, don't forget to include the science you get from the delivery (equal to the gold, provided the science box isn't full).


Don't let the wealth of information overwhelm or discourage you. Try incorporating a little more each time you play, and remember to have fun.

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

I didn't know that unit's shield price isn't linear! I don't rush alot, and when I do it's only to save one turn at the end of the project. A town might produce 14 shields and 18 is needed to complete, then I rush it and save one turn.

Depending on the amount of money you have, a better strategy is to use a different (lower cost) unit or building for the rushbuy, and let the city complete the last few shields. If you are going to waste a few shields during construction, change the city production squares to food or trade on the last turn (or couple turns).

Perhaps you are right, but the disadvantage with rushing the early stage and letting the city complete it the normal way, is that shields are ofen wasted when the city complete a project. Yes I do micromanage very much, but often shields are wasted anyway on the last turn.

Another factor is that at the early stage in the build project, I don't know exactly when I need it to be completed. Sooner is always better, but some things are more important than others, and what is important can change over time.

All the knowledge I really use is: "the terrain and the city population impact supply and demand." (Technologies do as well). If I'm changing the terrain around a city, or, much more likely, the city is growing very fast, I will often rushbuy a caravan when the city is small, so that I have that commodity when supply changes (particularly if it is something in high demand).

I have not noticed that supply and demand changed as a city grew. And I have not noticed changes after terraforming. Next time I play I'll make notes for every city!

I'm not sure to what extent special resources (coal, gems etc) in the city radius affects what the city supplies. This is something I've tried to keep an eye on, but I have not enough data to make conclusions.

That's correct; a single landmass is a continent for the purposes of trading. In that situation, the best strategy will probably be to ship "mainland" caravans/freight (if you are on that continent) to the islands, and island freight to the "mainland." On the World Map, Europe, Asia and Africa are all one continent; this has no small impact on trading strategy.

But if the other city on the same continent is very far away, it can maybe be a better trading partner than an equal big city on a nearby island?

Opinions on this vary from player to player. My opinion is similar to Peaster's. It is usually better to focus on the delivery bonus than the ongoing route. The only exceptions I can think of are if you want some extra trade in a city (for the luxuries, if you want to get it to celebrate, or at least keep order, or for more science in the SSC); if at all possible, use junk commodities (no good demand cities) to make these routes.

The reason for this is that, as you develop skill in civ 2, you can put the bonus money to work immediately, buying whatever you need, whereas you need to wait for a small stream of extra arrows each turn if you focus on the trade route bonus. Also, as you get more experience trading, your bonus payments will be somewhat larger on average. One of the most satisfying things to do is to use the bonus money to rush another caravan or two and get more bonuses.

What are junk commodities?

I never spend all of my money, I like to build up my cash account. If I have 1000 gold, I might spend half of it if I really have to rush something. In my current game I have accumulated somewhere between 30 and 40 thousand. The game is done and I just play some variant of Sim City where I let my nation grow. I play as the Celts and I lost the space race, not to another nation but to my retirement date. Space ship arrived 2023. I hoped it was enough to launch it before 2020.
Persia (the weakest and least developed nation) attempted to nuke one of my cities some years after the space race was over. I'm not sure when I'll quit, but at least I'll exterminate Persia for their unprovoked nuclear attack. We've been at war for a long time, but I have never bothered to conquer any of their badly developed towns. I just kill off whatever they send towards my cities. I thought the AI only would use nuclear weapons as a last resort! Especially since I do have nukes too. Thankfully I had SDI everywhere.

Don't let the wealth of information overwhelm or discourage you. Try incorporating a little more each time you play, and remember to have fun.

I have much experience from other Civ games, I don't think this is overwhelming, just confusing at times. But you guys do a great job with educating me.
I do have fun, but I could probably have even more fun if I was able to quit a game when it was won/lost and start over again.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Perhaps you are right, but the disadvantage with rushing the early stage and letting the city complete it the normal way, is that shields are ofen wasted when the city complete a project. Yes I do micromanage very much, but often shields are wasted anyway on the last turn.

Rushing the project to completion will always waste an entire turn of shield production anyway.

Another factor is that at the early stage in the build project, I don't know exactly when I need it to be completed. Sooner is always better, but some things are more important than others, and what is important can change over time.

That can be a problem. I almost always rush buildings from just a few shields in the production box at the time that I need it, since they are the least expensive things to rushbuild. I usually use caravans as my "placeholder" production if I'm not sure what to do with the city, and then either rushbuild the caravan to completion (if I have enough spare cash) if I want to build a building or switch to the unit I want to produce. I do also rushbuild caravans because I want them.

I have not noticed that supply and demand changed as a city grew. And I have not noticed changes after terraforming. Next time I play I'll make notes for every city!

I'm not sure to what extent special resources (coal, gems etc) in the city radius affects what the city supplies. This is something I've tried to keep an eye on, but I have not enough data to make conclusions.

To come up with supply and demand lists for each city, the computer analyses the surrounding terrain types, city population, certain city improvements and the technologies you have acquired, as well as some wild card factors. It then creates a number for each commodity (both for supply and demand) and the highest ones make the supply or demand lists. Specials count as 4 times the terrain that they are in, but otherwise have no impact.

I wouldn't bother keeping notes on supply and demand changes; the effect is observable by the way that over time you get new commodities supplied in cities, even after earlier blocking 3 commodities by building caravans. I strongly doubt that the insight gained from keeping supply and demand records will be worth the trouble to do so.

But if the other city on the same continent is very far away, it can maybe be a better trading partner than an equal big city on a nearby island?

I had a look at the trade route formula, and in order to compensate for the offshore bonus, the city must be twice the distance away plus approximately 10 extra squares on top of that (exact number depends on map size and ranges from 8 to 13). Don't forget that for horizontal distance on a round map, the computer takes the shorter of the 2 distances.

What are junk commodities?

There are some commodities that are demanded by relatively few cities (or at least few cities that are worth delivering to), yet are supplied by your cities in relative abundance. Typical examples are salt, beads, wool and cloth. It can also depend on the time period in the game; oil has a long period where it is supplied, but not demanded, and demand manifests itself slowly. I've also had trouble finding enough places that demand coal in a number of games.

Persia (the weakest and least developed nation) attempted to nuke one of my cities some years after the space race was over. I'm not sure when I'll quit, but at least I'll exterminate Persia for their unprovoked nuclear attack. We've been at war for a long time, but I have never bothered to conquer any of their badly developed towns. I just kill off whatever they send towards my cities. I thought the AI only would use nuclear weapons as a last resort! Especially since I do have nukes too. Thankfully I had SDI everywhere.

I remember reading somewhere (pretty sure it was in the scenario creation forum) that once Apollo Program has been built (meaning the Space Race has begun) the AI will launch unprovoked nuclear attacks; it will also use nukes if you use them first. I can vouch for the fact that they will make unprovoked attacks after you have launched a spaceship (and are in the altered diplomatic state that launching induces -- civs don't have to talk to you or make peace even if you have the UN at that point).

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

1. I've heard AI bombers never run out of fuel, but I can't promise that's right.

AI Bombers, Stealth Bombers and Stealth Fighters can't run out of fuel. I guess the same goes for Fighters but I've not observed it. I'm unsure for missiles.

---
The maximum range for Nuclear Missile is 16 tiles, but the AI tried to nuke one of my core cities. I enabled cheat mode and inspected his cities the turn before the attack and the turn after. One of his Nuclear Missiles moved 23 tiles in one turn! The two other missiles moved 22 tiles. All three nukes failed, the city didn't have SDI but another city three tiles away had SDI. Quite dumb to not try other cities...

Supplies in parenthesis are ''blocked'' and can't be used for caravan deliveries. The only commodity that does not block is hides. Every 16 turns the list of supply and demand is reprocessed: that is called the ''Solo Cycle'' If a van is built, its supply is blocked (except if the van contains hides) and if that van is delivered, the commodity is still blocked until next reprocessing. It is possible to force a reprocessing of the list using the Wonder Bread trick.

I don't think the "Solo Cycle" works here. At least 25-35 turns have passed since my capital built a Freight, and all three commodities are still blocked.


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Windows task bar:
The game is not full screen, meaning that the Windows task bar is visible. It's a bit annoying and I have to configure the task bare to hide. But whenever I play the game and get the mouse near the bottom of the screen, the Windows task bar pops up. It's not a big problem, but I wonder if this happens to anyone else? And maybe someone knows a way to fix this?
I use Windows XP.

Game sound:
The sound usually has a weird echo. Is it a known bug in the game or is it my computer?

Civ2 version 1.02.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

The maximum range for Nuclear Missile is 16 tiles, but the AI tried to nuke one of my core cities. I enabled cheat mode and inspected his cities the turn before the attack and the turn after. One of his Nuclear Missiles moved 23 tiles in one turn! The two other missiles moved 22 tiles. All three nukes failed, the city didn't have SDI but another city three tiles away had SDI. Quite dumb to not try other cities...

My understanding of the rules for AI Missiles, Nuclear and Cruise, are the following: They can be launched from ANY "platform" (city or submarine; I'm not sure the AI builds Aircraft Carriers) regardless of where the missile actually is, and they don't have to have a clear path to the target.

I don't think the "Solo Cycle" works here. At least 25-35 turns have passed since my capital built a Freight, and all three commodities are still blocked.

If your capital still has the same top three "supply values" (quite possible if the city hasn't been growing and you haven't been altering the terrain) then the reprocessing will result in the same 3 commodities, which will still be blocked since trade routes are currently using them (or they are still in caravans).

Windows task bar:
The game is not full screen, meaning that the Windows task bar is visible. It's a bit annoying and I have to configure the task bare to hide. But whenever I play the game and get the mouse near the bottom of the screen, the Windows task bar pops up. It's not a big problem, but I wonder if this happens to anyone else? And maybe someone knows a way to fix this?
I use Windows XP.

I actually prefer to have the task bar visible; it lets me move between civ and other things easily. Your problem with the task bar is almost certainly something you will have to sort out in Windows settings.

Game sound:
The sound usually has a weird echo. Is it a known bug in the game or is it my computer?

There is a sort of "swooshing" sound effect when you move units. Otherwise, I don't know of the problem.

 

[Magic_gorter]

If your version is still 1.02 (I presume it's the classic version) you better update it with the 2.42 patch. There are some bugs in the game (don't know if the sound is a bug too) which will be fixed.

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

If your version is still 1.02 (I presume it's the classic version) you better update it with the 2.42 patch. There are some bugs in the game (don't know if the sound is a bug too) which will be fixed.

I want to update the game, but I don't know what will happen with existing saves.

Edit: I remember similar sound echoes on other old games I played maaany years ago. And it's still the same ten year old pc I use.

 

[Jokemaster]

It's only the .exe files that will be replaced by the patch. I had to use that patch too (to downgrade from MGE to 2.42) so your savegames should be intact. If they will be readable... I THINK (not positive) that because 2.42 is newer it will read the saves. Not sure about that however.

EDIT: You can also, before you upgrade, copy the MicroProse Software folder (the game is in the folder) and paste it elsewhere. You can then upgrade the copied folder without affecting the original Civ2 game you had. This way, if something goes awry with the upgrade, you still have your old Civ2.

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

Can anyone confirm this? I need to be sure.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I've never heard of a newer version of the game failing to read an older version of the game.

If you want to be completely sure that you won't lose your games, do the following:

Create a spare folder somewhere on your computer; we'll call it "backup".

Find the folder in your computer with your civ2 game in it (it might be called something like "Civilization II" or "MPS"; you'll need to find your game file in order to apply the patch anyway).

Select your saved games and copy them from your "Civilization II" folder to "backup" folder.

Apply the patch.

In the unlikely event that you lose your saved games, you can copy them back from "backup" folder.

In the equally unlikely event that the game fails to read your saved games, you can just plop your civ 2 disk back into the computer and install the game a second time.