Vassal Questions

[Merkinball]

I'm sure this has been asked before, but I can't find anything specifically pertaining to it.

I'm first curious about what triggers various civilizations to capitulate. In my current game, I'm trying to get a diplo victory via vassalizing the world, or a domination victory. It's weird, because Boudica was wildly weaker than me, way behind in techs, but just absolutely refuses to capitulate. She herself had two vassals, Shaka and Sitting Bull, that were teching way behind her. (Tanks vs. Longbowmen in the case of sitting Bull). Yet, they refuse to capitulate.

Conversely, I simply put some stacks of doom inside Hatty's land, and she capitulated after taking just one of 13 cities.

Pacal was even more curious. Pacal was teching WAY ahead of me. He had more land, and may have actually had some ability to stave off my massive invasion long enough to war anger crippled my Civ. But after taking just two cities, and knocking on the door of two others, he capitulated after three or four turns as well.

So what gives? Can anybody give me some technical details about what triggers Capitulation.

My other question concerns taking Vassals resources and techs. I like how I can just take a civilizations resources. That's how it should be. But I don't like that I can't just take my vassals technologies. I mean, there is seriously no telling how far ahead of me in techs Pacal is. Yet, I can't steal his techs. Or even get the "Time to pay tribute, refusal mean war!"

It doesn't make much sense. If I control a civilization, and it has knowledge. There is no good excuse for me to not be able to just...immediately acquire whatever knowledge they have. Know what I'm saying?

 

[Civfan333]

you usually have to take most of their cities till they capitualate.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Actually, you can get a relatively large empire to capitulate quickly. The trick is to capture their capital, any holy cities they might have, a major production city, and a border city. That should be enough. I had Pacal II capitulate to me after I captured one peninsula city and his capital (which was completely on the other side of his borders from me, thanks early Galleon rush!). He was pretty high up on the list, too, so it was gold being able to get him when he was still so strong.

That's not the first time that has happened. I've done it many times before, but that was the most recent. Like I said, grab the capital, a holy city, a major prod city (that really should be enough), and a border city. Usually, that will eliminate enough of their army and research power to allow a capitulation. Unless they really hate you. Then you might wanna watch out for another enemy to vassalize them.

 

[sav]

I personally have so many questions about vassal states, it's all very mysterious to me so far.

I suppose my main question is do I have to wait until the game offers me to liberate my colonies, or is there a way I can instigate liberation?

Also, do vassal states only count for domination? I can't use them to build spaceships or anything?

Thirdly... is it ever advisable to liberate a colony? My economy was running fine, I was top in the chart pointswise - I liberated a colony, sudddenly my economy and points went south and now I only have a few cities with which to try and win the game. Seems backwards!

 

[Willem]

I'm first curious about what triggers various civilizations to capitulate. In my current game, I'm trying to get a diplo victory via vassalizing the world, or a domination victory. It's weird, because Boudica was wildly weaker than me, way behind in techs, but just absolutely refuses to capitulate. She herself had two vassals, Shaka and Sitting Bull, that were teching way behind her. (Tanks vs. Longbowmen in the case of sitting Bull). Yet, they refuse to capitulate.

There's some coding in the XML files for each civilization that sets out their willingness to capitulate. Some will roll over easily, others will fight until the bitter end if possible. I guess Boudica is one of the pig-headed ones.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I suppose my main question is do I have to wait until the game offers me to liberate my colonies, or is there a way I can instigate liberation?

No, you don't have to wait. Press F1 to go to the City Adviser screen. Towards the lower right portion of the window, you will see a fist. Click the fist to open a popup menu of cities you can liberate or set as a colony.

Also, do vassal states only count for domination? I can't use them to build spaceships or anything?

They count for domination and capitulates count towards domination AND conquest. They will always vote for you in UN Elections. You cannot utilize them for spaceships. AFAIK, they can even win the game if they build it before you (if they have the required techs, resources, and choose to build the parts => very unlikely) They can win via culture, too, if you aren't careful.

Thirdly... is it ever advisable to liberate a colony? My economy was running fine, I was top in the chart pointswise - I liberated a colony, sudddenly my economy and points went south and now I only have a few cities with which to try and win the game. Seems backwards!

If you are not planning on utilizing corporations (specifically if you plan to use State Prop), I would keep the colonies. The distance/maintenance nullifier included with State Prop keeps you in the green while allowing your empire to expand endlessly. However, if you'd like to found corporations and spam them, I would advise using Free Market (for the trade routes bonus), free your distant colonies (they are a friendly vassal now), and spread all the corporations that you can to the colonies. Make sure you found the corps in your Wall Street city.

But if you are in the green with a good research level and army, there is no reason to liberate a colony unless you plan on implementing the corporations tactic discussed above.

 

[ferenginar]

My current game is the first time I have tried liberating colonies, half a dozen new cities on a new continent were becoming quite expensive. Can this liberated colony unvassalize?

 

[praktik]

I was playing my first Prince game with the Germans under Frederick last night. Standard map, Terra.

So I start with Charlemagne just to the north of me on a fat peninsula together, with rome west of Charlemagne and northwest of me, and America under Washington directly to my west.

I utilized all the tricks to get axemen up and running, soon I had 3 cities pumping out axemen in 4-6 turns and 4th one on its way to production mode (but low production and food until a border pop kind of kept it back a while).


So I take out all of Charlemagnes cities and boot him out of the game (no wonders, but NICE capital.., with a sizeable force of upgraded axes remaining and a new stack coming up in my south. America had planted some really crappy cities in some bad places - but had managed to wrap around me from my west to my south.

I knew we were well into Praetorian age and Rome and Washington were friends, jewish - while I was the sole buddhist. So even though I only had one jewish town I converted to judaism and gifted Rome a few things.

Luckily my catipults were coming online and soon I declared on Washington, confident that Rome wouldn't step in to help.

I take over 4 cities - including his capital with The Pyramids and the Great wall, and I raze all his cities to the south (four of them, including an 8 population philadelphia).

After the capital fell I tried to vassalize him after each victory - but to no avail.

I figured I was the same religion - and I had him on the ropes - so what gives? Whats the threshold for a civ to be willing to vassalize? The guy had maybe 2-3 cities left, separated from each other, and he still wouldn't give it up.

I ended up having to halt war due to high war weariness and "we will not fight with the brothers and sisters of our faith" negative - so he was lucky.

I took a peace treaty for three good technologies (I was way behind from all the warring), 90 gold and some gpt....

ALSO: if I decide I don't want a city - can I disband it?? or am i stuck having to give it away or liberate it as a colony?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^^It is more difficult to get some leaders to capitulate than others. Some will never give in.

You cannot disband cities in Civ IV. You can try abandoning it, declare war on him, take the city back, and then raise it. Or you can liberate it.

 

[Willem]

Can this liberated colony unvassalize?

Yes, but it's not easy to do. Vassals that were originally colonies have the strictest conditions for setting themselves free of any vassal state. You have to really piss them off. As long as you maintain a decent relationship with them, they'll stick with you.

 

[Shylock]

Is it better to conquer outright or just vassalise?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Depends on the distance, what era it is, what level you are playing on, the size of your army, status of techs and economy, and your planned type of win. If the enemy is next door, it isn't too early in the game (ie you can build courthouses), you have a sufficient defense force for the new land, you are a decent techer, you can remain in the green at a decent tech rate, and you want to retain perfect relations with your friends, I say take over all the land and raise minor cities.

If, however, the enemy is far from your homeland, you don't have a sufficient city garrison force for the new land, you are behind in techs, or your economy is not in the green then I would suggest you capitulate them. Don't leave them paralyzed, either. Try to get them to capitulate while they are still decently strong. However, if you wish to go for a diplo victory or you are on the borderline between Friendly/Pleased with a nearby powerful rival, you may not want to accept a vassal (because of the -1 diplo hit)

 

[sav]

thanks Blitzkreig. I never used the City Advisor screen before, but will now!

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

@sav: No problem, bro. Wow, you've never used F1 (city adviser)? It's great for deciding what city to place your Wall Street, Oxford U, Science Academies, etc. Also, you can sort the cities by various traits (commerce, science, hammers, population, culture, etc).

A great tool for city specialization.

 

[.Shane.]

blitz....


2 questions regarding city advisor screen....

1. The column that is about 3 from the right that is a solid red circle, what is that? I'm sure it'll be a "duh" once you tell me but, unlike some of the others, the icon is not intuitive to me.

2. Liberating colonies..... in my current game, I have 2 distant cities I want to liberate. I thought you did this via the CA screen, but is there some sort of criteria that must be met for them to be "available" to liberate as a colony?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

blitz....


2 questions regarding city advisor screen....

1. The column that is about 3 from the right that is a solid red circle, what is that? I'm sure it'll be a "duh" once you tell me but, unlike some of the others, the icon is not intuitive to me.

2. Liberating colonies..... in my current game, I have 2 distant cities I want to liberate. I thought you did this via the CA screen, but is there some sort of criteria that must be met for them to be "available" to liberate as a colony?

1. Red circle? Are you sure that's not the face? Perhaps it's the espionage points?

2. First, you must have vassal states turned ON to free an entire colony. (this is default). The colony must be the only civ on that continent. If you just want to liberate cities to an already existing civ, I am unsure of the prerequisites for that. Perhaps someone has looked at the coding?

 

[.Shane.]

1. Red circle? Are you sure that's not the face? Perhaps it's the espionage points?

No, its not the esppoints. Its like the 3rd or so from the right on that city view. I'll have to dig around for a screenshot.

2. First, you must have vassal states turned ON to free an entire colony. (this is default). The colony must be the only civ on that continent. If you just want to liberate cities to an already existing civ, I am unsure of the prerequisites for that. Perhaps someone has looked at the coding?

Ah, that explains it. Yeah, in both cases the cities are on an island that other countries settled as well.

 

[Polobo]

@.Shane. - input "civ4 red coin" into the forum search feature and check out the second result provided (relating to the domestic advisor screen)

 

[Jhoosier]

@ Merkinball:

I had the same problem in my current game. Survyaman II (sp? - the Khmer guy) wouldn't capitulate. He had two colonies he'd created, England and Mongolia. I ended up wiping him out, an up to the last pitiful city he wouldn't capitulate. I think you have to off their colonies before they'll give up. Does anyone know?

In addition, I was attacked by Shaka, whose vassal was Monty. I knocked Monty down to 2 cities and he gave in a capitulated to me, and soon after Shaka did the same, without me even getting to his capital (I think it was the monster stack Charlemagne had coming for him). So maybe civs with vassals/colonies are unlikely to give up as easily. Anyone know? If so, I'm gonna have to off a few more vassals before I can get the big guys to give in.

 

[Bushface]

Red spot column shows city maintenance cost. A quick way to see where you need courthouses.