Vassal states
- Thread starter Andorim
- Start date
The theory is that sometimes the cost in troops and time to finish off a wounded foe isn't worth it. Especially if you're fighting a second war somewhere else. I have yet to have the AI be willing to agree to capitulation before he's reduced to one or two cities though. So in practice it might not be so useful in standard sandbox mode.
Also you gain access to their road network without having to setup your own culture over it. That can be very important at times when another empire's culture would normall envelope most of theirs.
Also you gain access to their road network without having to setup your own culture over it. That can be very important at times when another empire's culture would normall envelope most of theirs.
Murky
Deity
I would think that it would be nice thing all around. Conquering additional cities takes more time and troops to accomplish.
If you have them down to 2-3 cities that would be a pain to take and are basically worthless then having them be a vassal could be a better choice than finishing them off.
The other AIs won't be able to move in and re-settle areas where you would have likely razed if the vassal state wasn't an option.
If you have them down to 2-3 cities that would be a pain to take and are basically worthless then having them be a vassal could be a better choice than finishing them off.
The other AIs won't be able to move in and re-settle areas where you would have likely razed if the vassal state wasn't an option.
opticaljim
Warlord
I have used it in my games so far and the advantage seems to be more clear on a map with multiple continents.
In a conquest or domination game featuring continents the strategy is usually to dominate your continent before launching a naval invasion against civs on other continents.
The process of conquering your neighboring civs takes less time if you can manage to whittle them down to two or three cities before capitulation. Eventually you have access to all luxuries and recources as well as mobility throughout the entire continent.
In addition, you have military manpower defending your empire that actually belongs to your vassal state. That is, if a civ on another continent decides to launch an invasion on your continent your vassals not only declare war on the invader but actually help to repel them.
A few tips for what it's worth: During wartime against an invader give your vassals open borders to help attack the opponent anywhere on the continent. Repeal the open borders when peace is obtained. Do not ignore the plight of your vassals during an invasion because if the invader conquers a vassal city or two at the most then it may free up the vassal and you must go through the process of re-conquering him.
In a conquest or domination game featuring continents the strategy is usually to dominate your continent before launching a naval invasion against civs on other continents.
The process of conquering your neighboring civs takes less time if you can manage to whittle them down to two or three cities before capitulation. Eventually you have access to all luxuries and recources as well as mobility throughout the entire continent.
In addition, you have military manpower defending your empire that actually belongs to your vassal state. That is, if a civ on another continent decides to launch an invasion on your continent your vassals not only declare war on the invader but actually help to repel them.
A few tips for what it's worth: During wartime against an invader give your vassals open borders to help attack the opponent anywhere on the continent. Repeal the open borders when peace is obtained. Do not ignore the plight of your vassals during an invasion because if the invader conquers a vassal city or two at the most then it may free up the vassal and you must go through the process of re-conquering him.
I figured a genius way of using the vassalage system to have the AI do all the dirty work for you. Imagine it's a game with 2 continents and you are conquering one but there are 2 pretty strong AIs on another. I mean u can take them but you dotn feel like micro manageing. Well instead of killign off the last guy on your continent make him capitulate to you, then just declare war on soemoen on the otehr continent and feed your vassel troops and money. He will do all the fighting. 
I am still on my first Warlords game. Playing continents. Mayans are wiped out. Then I started on Japan -- my only other neighbour on our continent.
I had Toku down to two cities, which I could easily have taken. On the turn that I finished researching Feudalism, before it even dinged to say that I had completed the research, Toku offered capitulation. His last two cities had nothing that I needed, and I was curious about how the vassal state would work, so I accepted his offer.
Since then I have researched Optics and discovered the other continent. I don't have Navigation yet, so I can't do much with the other continent yet. Toku will never be able to be a real threat -- so maybe this whole vassal state thing will turn out to be a good idea.
I had Toku down to two cities, which I could easily have taken. On the turn that I finished researching Feudalism, before it even dinged to say that I had completed the research, Toku offered capitulation. His last two cities had nothing that I needed, and I was curious about how the vassal state would work, so I accepted his offer.
Since then I have researched Optics and discovered the other continent. I don't have Navigation yet, so I can't do much with the other continent yet. Toku will never be able to be a real threat -- so maybe this whole vassal state thing will turn out to be a good idea.
FrozenRaven
Chieftain
Andorim said:
huh? Mayans?
don't think so...Gnarfflinger
Wiseguy in Training
When you build the UN, your Vassal States will vote your way on UN votes. I rode that to a Diplomatic win...
Gnarfflinger said:
Thank you!
Ok here's my experience with vassals so far. If you take a nation's capital, you'll often find them willing to capitulate. By doing this, I was able to get Alexander who still had 5 towns remaining, while razing only two towns (one was a 1-2 pop town, the other was just too far away for me to take it without getting a wonder) and capturing his capital. Overall, that was a much better deal than I got with Shaka and Caesar.
With Shaka, he wouldn't speak to me for 10 turns after I declared war on him. At least I'm guessing that's how long the AI waits before they speak to you again. Anyway, by that time, I had left most of his country in ashes. I believe I razed 5 towns, and he had two remaining when he was willing to capitulate. I'm wondering now whether I should have let him do it. With Caesar, I didn't know about the capital thing. I just ravaged his outlying towns until he was down to three or so, and then he begged for mercy.
At this point, I have the remaining three nations as my vassals. Because they all capitulated, none will be able to leave this position until someone gets 50% as much land and population as me. They're all well under my thumb. As long as I keep my population and territory twice as high as my recovering enemies, I'll be ok. At first, I was concerned I'd have to wait until 2050 to end the game. Thanks to your post, I have a better idea.
One thing I'd like to note though: I only control about 75% of the world population. That should be my population plus 50% of my vassals' population. That's still more than enough to get a diplomatic victory, but you don't get the entire population of the enemy.
Edit: Actually, I gave it one more turn after I accepted Shaka as a vassal, and I won a conquest victory. I like vassals now. There's nothing wrong with saving some time/soldiers, and getting a punching bag for the enemy while you're at it. I now realize it was a mistake not to accept Ragnar's and Stalin's capitulation, and not a mistake to have allowed Shaka's.
Captain2
ಠ_ృ
I made Stalin capulate to me, but the funny thing was he wouldnt offer it, i had to offer it to him
i still found it pretty funny, Stalin being a vassal to Germany lol
i still found it pretty funny, Stalin being a vassal to Germany lol
Xanikk999
History junkie
FrozenRaven said:huh? Mayans?
Sorry for being off topic but in your sig, did bush actually say that about germany?
I really find it funny how hes the only person in politics who seems to get away with saying the wrong things.
One person several years ago had to step down for using the correct usage of a old fashioned word but it sounded like the N-word.
Ok back on topic....
Spike59
Chieftain
I apologize for asking such a simple question, but what exactly is a vassal state? What does it do for you? Is it an option in negotiating the peace deal, or is it something that just sort of happens when you kick the stuffing out of one of your rivals?
Phyr_Negator
Anti-tolerast
Personally I found only one use for VS - when in Multiplayer opponent start whining and asking for peace, offer him to become Vassal...and obey. Almost none bother you with peace proposals after.
Tristan daCunha
Pacifist Aggressive
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2006
- Messages
- 274
Spike59 said:
It is only available through the Warlords expansion. Here is what the CivFanatics summary of Warlords says about Vassal states:
In the case of capitulation, it is a negotiated surrender during wartime.
Another advantage of a vassal is you can tell them what techs to reearch. If you keep reasonable relations with them you can then trade these cheap or demand them for free as I found when I got Isabella to be a vassal. However, if you make too many arrogant demands they jhate you to much and you can't make the demand or a trade. I think the rule regarding resource demands in vassal states sould be extended to technologies.
theycallmeb
Chieftain
Since I usually play Terra type maps, I let the AI capitulate to avoid having to hunt down the little cities scattered across the island at the ends of the world, thus saving a lot of time and frustration. As someone else noted, the offer usually starts after you capture their capital.
One thing I have noticed is that if you sign a regular peace treaty with an enemy, they can become a vassal of another civ the next turn and break the peace treaty before the normal 10 turns are up. Whether its deliberate or an oversight by the game designers, I don't think you should be able to break the peace treaty like this.
Not that Cyrus offered Tokugawa a whole lot of protection as neither had oil based units, but I digress.
One thing I have noticed is that if you sign a regular peace treaty with an enemy, they can become a vassal of another civ the next turn and break the peace treaty before the normal 10 turns are up. Whether its deliberate or an oversight by the game designers, I don't think you should be able to break the peace treaty like this.
Not that Cyrus offered Tokugawa a whole lot of protection as neither had oil based units, but I digress.
jkp1187
Unindicted Co-Conspirator
theycallmeb said:
On a recent prince-level game, Rome (Augustus) offered to capitulate just when I had an army in position to take their capital, but before the battle actually began. France (Louis) surrendered after I took just ONE city.
You can't say that this game doesn't reflect reality....
Mighty Spearman
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2006
- Messages
- 21
I'm tossed on how much I really like Vassal states, in my last game I played a war-mongering Cyrus. I got dragged into a war with Egypt, captured 3 cities, and Ramses capitulated right after. One thing to note, I had a tech advantage on them, Riflemen and Cavalry to Longbowmen.
Then the Celts with their Ottoman vassal (who should've been my Ottoman vassal) declare war on me. I was going to destroy the Celts in another turn anyway so I easily mowed them down. I got about half his cities, capital not inclucded, and he capitulated, funny thing was before the war he was #2 in the world score ranking, despite me taking some of his cities (purely because I had infantry and he only had riflemen) he made a fantastic ally. The Ottomans broke free during the war, so me and their former master took what we thought was every last city, but it turned out he had an island stronghold, so I just accepted his capitualtion.
I moved on to China who was under my Ottoman captured empire, and next to the egyptians. I razed about 2 cities and captured one, and he quickly capitulated despite being #2 in the world in land. Again, I had a tech advantage of Tanks to Infantry (you can see how I made my strategy for conquering people, i.e. whatever poor sap wasn't keeping up with my tech)
Finally, I moved on to Carthage, now Carthage was a sore point as I failed to capture them early in the game when they pulled out Chichen Itza when I didn't have cats yet. After capturing 3 cities he offered capitulation, I refused and just conquered him.
So I had the Celts, Egyptians, Chinese, and Ottomans as vassals. I also had 47% of the world population and 48% of the land. The only other Civs were on a continent far away and the 100 turn warning just came up, I ended up having to settle for a spaceship launch around 1965.
This may be a strange bug, but they unlike any other Civ seemed to have huge amounts of Gold per turn coming in. I'd offer one of my extra resources to them and they'd pay all the gold they had coming in, and then when I went back to the screen, they'd have more gold per turn. I could keep doing this until I was out of resources to trade them. Though sometimes they did run out of money. I don't know if this is a bug or not, but I was pulling in over 400 gold per turn from each of my vassals (except the Ottomans with their one last city).
They'll give you any resource they have (and then pay you to get it back!) But you can't ask for anything you already have to get extra. Well once you have a large empire, there's very little you don't have. I think the only thing my vassals gave me of use was Furs. It'd be better if I could take their extra gold resource because I want it and trade it to someone who might pay me better (though in fairness, nobody was paying better for a resource than my vassals who seemed to amass huge stockpiles of gold and liked to buy my techs).
But I couldn't help but wonder as I had to settle for my spaceship victory... if I had conquered them and not accepted the capitulation, would I have been better off. With half their land and population values I was at 48%, I needed 56% for Domination victory. Plus I could've controlled those extra resources and what happens with them. You can't end the vassal relationship as far as I can tell, nor can you give them cities to put them over the threshold. Which was annoying because I had one city that kept revolting to go back to the Celts but ultimatly stayed in my control.
Then the Celts with their Ottoman vassal (who should've been my Ottoman vassal) declare war on me. I was going to destroy the Celts in another turn anyway so I easily mowed them down. I got about half his cities, capital not inclucded, and he capitulated, funny thing was before the war he was #2 in the world score ranking, despite me taking some of his cities (purely because I had infantry and he only had riflemen) he made a fantastic ally. The Ottomans broke free during the war, so me and their former master took what we thought was every last city, but it turned out he had an island stronghold, so I just accepted his capitualtion.
I moved on to China who was under my Ottoman captured empire, and next to the egyptians. I razed about 2 cities and captured one, and he quickly capitulated despite being #2 in the world in land. Again, I had a tech advantage of Tanks to Infantry (you can see how I made my strategy for conquering people, i.e. whatever poor sap wasn't keeping up with my tech)
Finally, I moved on to Carthage, now Carthage was a sore point as I failed to capture them early in the game when they pulled out Chichen Itza when I didn't have cats yet. After capturing 3 cities he offered capitulation, I refused and just conquered him.
So I had the Celts, Egyptians, Chinese, and Ottomans as vassals. I also had 47% of the world population and 48% of the land. The only other Civs were on a continent far away and the 100 turn warning just came up, I ended up having to settle for a spaceship launch around 1965.
This may be a strange bug, but they unlike any other Civ seemed to have huge amounts of Gold per turn coming in. I'd offer one of my extra resources to them and they'd pay all the gold they had coming in, and then when I went back to the screen, they'd have more gold per turn. I could keep doing this until I was out of resources to trade them. Though sometimes they did run out of money. I don't know if this is a bug or not, but I was pulling in over 400 gold per turn from each of my vassals (except the Ottomans with their one last city).
They'll give you any resource they have (and then pay you to get it back!) But you can't ask for anything you already have to get extra. Well once you have a large empire, there's very little you don't have. I think the only thing my vassals gave me of use was Furs. It'd be better if I could take their extra gold resource because I want it and trade it to someone who might pay me better (though in fairness, nobody was paying better for a resource than my vassals who seemed to amass huge stockpiles of gold and liked to buy my techs).
But I couldn't help but wonder as I had to settle for my spaceship victory... if I had conquered them and not accepted the capitulation, would I have been better off. With half their land and population values I was at 48%, I needed 56% for Domination victory. Plus I could've controlled those extra resources and what happens with them. You can't end the vassal relationship as far as I can tell, nor can you give them cities to put them over the threshold. Which was annoying because I had one city that kept revolting to go back to the Celts but ultimatly stayed in my control.
