Vassal Venting....

[Kbo]

Just figured i'd blow off a little steam, hopefully there's a few of you out there that could share some of this frustration...

Here's the scenario; I finally got a solid SE econ going with Pericles on Emp after honing some things on monarch and reading over some more threads on the forums, got the pyramids and got rifling before anyone besides mansa had replaceable parts, decided to nuke MM first and kick off my war scenario.

This is where it gets interesting, Shaka decided about 10-20 turns before i started building up my mega stacks to DoW on Rams, ends up cappying him and immediately 5 turns later goes after Wang, who was the leader in everything but power and tech at the time. By the time i have four of MM's cities (including where he built the AP, though he ended up having the majority on the religion and ended the war with a resolution...sigh ) Wang is ALSO now a shaka vassalite, and the turn that i can resume my battle and take his capital, he vasses to Shaka aswell, his previous worst enemy.....

Needless to say i quit to desktop livid.

Any words of advice? Other than focus on an earlier war or such, what else would have been a good route to take?

 

[CynicalMagician]

If you suspect an AI will capitulate to another AI and you don't want them to, try bribing the stronger opponent to end the war. That will buy you a bit of time. I don't understand the vassalizing mechanics very well myself, but learning the rules of what causes a civ to vassalize and how likely they are to do so would help you recognize the possibility sooner. Hopefully TMIT will post in this thread - he seems to understand vassals/capitulation very well.

 

[Kbo]

That much would be true, especially with the tech lead that i had on shaka since he was warmongering all game i could have bribed him off.....had he been at war with MM It was one of those out of the blue vassals. I wonder if getting shaka to pleased somehow would have had him veer off of wanting to vassal him

 

[KeloGBites]

Some screens or a save would be nice, Shaka with 3 vassals is tough. But still able to be brought down. Whoever is second in power that isn't his vassal should be goaded into a war with him, if MM vassaled to him without a war, all you need to do is bring down Shaka's power to get MM to break free, at which point you are free to vassal/annihilate him yourself.
Check which techs Shaka has, and which units he is fielding. It may be possible to K.O him with Artillery/Infantry or Tanks. You can also screw over his vassal plan by taking say 50% of their territory at which point they break free, then you make peace with Shaka, and vassal/kill the weaker civ.

 

[cabert]

2 tips :
- kill shaka first thing (not an always true thing, but often)
- know your target victory condition

the second one means that if you're going for domination, you don't go for the toughest opponent first, but for the weakest. In this case this was wang, with more cities and land but less techs and power.

 

[z0wb13]

not every game can be won.

sometimes you just get a bad roll.

however because the ai sucks at warfare, and from how i understand it you have rifling and they've got muskets or worse, just declare a war on shaka. defend your cities with FS riflemen and either go for cavalry (for defense) or cannons (for city capture) while the ai suicides against your superior units.

depending on map size, start cranking units with your 3-5 best cities and just roll them over. you might want to change civics for more unit exp., or have to bump the slider for war-weariness.

or, just turtle and win with space.

good luck. and remember, quitters are even worse than losers; at least losers might learn something.

 

[kaltorak]

and remember, quitters are even worse than losers;

And what about quitters who always quit when the game looks won, instead of finishing them? Happens all the time to me, I loose interest as soon as I see I can win.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If you suspect an AI will capitulate to another AI and you don't want them to, try bribing the stronger opponent to end the war. That will buy you a bit of time. I don't understand the vassalizing mechanics very well myself, but learning the rules of what causes a civ to vassalize and how likely they are to do so would help you recognize the possibility sooner. Hopefully TMIT will post in this thread - he seems to understand vassals/capitulation very well.

I only know them well thanks to this forum (specifically DanF5771 in this case).

Capitulation: Happens as an end consequence of a war. Others at war are forced into peace (though they can declare on both master and vassal now if they choose). Generally for capitulation you need to be markedly stronger than your target, and your target's power must be below the average of all players. It's also strongly advisable (and difficult to avoid) capping them such that they are not over both 50% land AND pop, where they could break free.

Boosted by "land target" rule ----> target has another civ bordering it with 8 tiles (standard size map) that is also at war. Makes target more likely to capitulate.

Some AIs are more or less likely to vassal per their XML values on the matter. It's a lot easier to cap Asoka than Genghis Khan.

Quite likely in your game, Shaka had a massive power rating and was able to trigger the land target rule to collect vassals via war. This is a consistent problem when warmongers gain momentum, and Shaka is probably the best AI at this on average.

If a massive power shares in a war with you, it is advisable to bribe them out so that YOU can vassal the target.

Voluntary Vassal: The important thing to know about voluntary vassals is that it is a TRADE deal. The vassal to be is essentially bribing an AI to war with you by offering a vassal deal. Because it is a trade deal, you can do things like buy 10 turns of an AI not taking your target via a request. Also, an AI will only accept this deal if they would normally be willing to be bribed to war, so bear that in mind too. For example Hannibal at pleased won't take a voluntary vassal if it means a DoW.

This deal can also be done at peace and usually involves a weaker AI doing it with someone who has a massive power lead. You generally only see it between nations that have good relations already, as it is also a trade deal although I'm not sure what dictates it other than the requirement of enough disposition (also XML defined it seems) and power.

Plan ahead. Try not to get caught off guard by either vassal mechanic.

 

[Ian Kognitow]

This is where it gets interesting, Shaka decided about 10-20 turns before i started building up my mega stacks to DoW on Rams, ends up cappying him and immediately 5 turns later goes after Wang, who was the leader in everything but power and tech at the time. By the time i have four of MM's cities (including where he built the AP, though he ended up having the majority on the religion and ended the war with a resolution...sigh ) Wang is ALSO now a shaka vassalite, and the turn that i can resume my battle and take his capital, he vasses to Shaka aswell, his previous worst enemy.....
Any words of advice? Other than focus on an earlier war or such, what else would have been a good route to take?

It's indeed an annoying situation but it sounds like you should more or less be in the same position as before. You say you're at least well into the process of building your own 'mega stacks' - at least enough to carve through MM already. All those vassals, while they might for now greatly enhance Shaka's score/territory size, all have just had their armies broken and none of the three (MM, Wang, Ramsses) are themselves particular warmonger that will constantly pump out new units. Just turn your attention to breaking Shaka's SoD.

In fact, assuming that you're still in early Industrial-age, you can do it quite soon, just assuming you have Railroad--and optimally Military Tradition as well--and Shaka doesn't (just Railroad here). Declare war, and go mop up MM's capital (and possibly wipe him out completely for being such a craven pain in the arse). Then just play defense against Shaka. He'll inevitably lope in with his stack. You may have to temporarily give up a frontier city but as soon as he goes for a city that allows you some culture extension and fortification, just send the bulk of your army there--with a solid complement of machine guns--and watch Shaka's power rating plunge as he breaks his entire army. If he has loads of siege, you may have to throw some of your own cannon at his stack so that cavalry can destroy his siege weapons, but it shouldn't be much to make good those losses. After that, just go back over his own war route through his vassals until they free themselves (and either vassalize them yourself or liberate their crap cities to make friends for diplo win). Once war weariness gets too much, take all his money in reparations and later destroy him for good once you get aircraft. Shaka may even be stupid enough to try to invade you again once he gets Industrialism. All the better if any of his units he's willing to free from city garrisons can be destroyed in your own territory before stretching your lines. In any case, like with machine guns, it doesn't really matter where his stacks are if he has scant defense against massed bombers.

In sum, as long as you retain your tech advantage, you should be able to sucker his stack into fighting in an ideal place for it to be slaughtered, after which the rest of the game is just cleaning up and coasting. It will be long and you may have to wrangle a ridiculous amount of units but it shouldn't necessarily be hard. Even if he has a stack as large as 100-150 units, if you get him to fight in your own railroaded territory protected by machine guns, it's quite possible to destroy his entire stack with losses better than 10:1 - pretty much just some initial siege units of your own and then a handful of improbable losses. .

 

[CarlH]

And what about quitters who always quit when the game looks won, instead of finishing them? Happens all the time to me, I loose interest as soon as I see I can win.

I have seen this said a lot. But I think it is a bit of a cop out, depending how early you do it.

For example, If I do an early rush and take out an opponent and block a lot of land, the game will probably be a win. But there are a lot of things that can happen in the meantime which could mean a loss if not properly managed, such as over expansion and crippling the economy.

So when is it that you quit like this?

 

[Nares]

If you suspect an AI will capitulate to another AI and you don't want them to, try bribing the stronger opponent to end the war. That will buy you a bit of time.

This.

I'm thinking of searching out the peace-time vassalization code and clearing it (or modifying it to be impossible).

To be honest, I'm not a huge fan of some of the ******ed hidden bonuses the AI receives. Maintenance costs, research rate, and production rate bonuses I can handle, but some of the hidden diplo modifiers are a real pain.

 

[RedFury]

to be clear, were you actually at war with Mansa when he voluntary-vassaled to Shaka? Or were you in the middle of a peace-treaty and planning to go back to war? Ie - did the vassal agreement result in Shaka actually declaring on you?

Taking a break (peace-treaty) against an AI you plan to go back to war with can always be a risk. I've had a few games where they've voluntarily vassaled to AI's in the meantime - AI's that wouldn't have accepted the deal if it would have meant war with me due to our friendliness.

If you were at war and Shaka took the vassal deal and declared on you - then this can be a difficult situation. Shaka is one of those psycho AI's that will accept a voluntary vassal even if he doesn't like them, and go to war against the vassal's target even if he does. Also, mansa is one of the guys who will voluntary vassal to someone he doesn't really like if their power is great enough. You've struck a bad combination with those two. The obvious way to stop it from happening is to bribe Shaka to war - if he's got "enough on his hands" then he won't accept a vassal-bribe into a new war. However, this brings up a new problem as Shaka is big and will probably win any war he gets bribed into and become even bigger. In this situation, getting Shaka to friendly (not easy because he doesn't care much for religion and has a rather late-game favorite civic) or using peace-treaties with him to stop the voluntary vassal from happening may work.

Although, I have heard from various sources that in the latest patch peace treaties with the AI don't always seem to reliably hold in vassal situations.

edit: Just looked up the chart and Mansa will vassal to anyone he's cautious or better with. However, if Shaka has vassals then these are averaged for the purposes of diplo so even if Mansa is annoyed/furious with Shaka directly, the vassals could get him up to Cautious required to vassal. Also, Shaka will accept a war bribe from someone who he's cautious or greater with, against a target he's pleased or less with. Having a psycho warmonger doing well in a game where there are weaklings like mansa around can be difficult.

 

[Thor7]

Mansa isn't going to send any units to war with you, wang and ram might have a few but probably they'll be mostly for defense. This still sounds winnable to me, just cut the head off the beats- take down shaka. Of course it's hard if he's halfway across the world and you have to cut through all his vassals first while he sends stacks o doom, but it can be done. Your tech lead seems enough to make it so.

 

[Kbo]

I ended up waiting a good 20 turns and drafted a ton of riflemen with my tech lead, obliterated MM and then took a couple of wangs cities while shaka and his other vassal (Rams) died to my rifles with their knights and trebs, figured conquest would be the more fun approach than a space race vic with my lead.

Just to clairify a few points, and thanks for all the advice and theorycraft btw , i was at war with MM taking him over, he controlled the AP and the vast majority of the religion it was founded under, and ended the war. Shaka never went to war with him, it was a peaceful vassal agreement the turn before i was able to declare again. Grrr

 

[RedFury]

it was a peaceful vassal agreement the turn before i was able to declare again. Grrr

yep, happens a lot to me. It's like the AI knows you're gonna be gunning for him again as soon as the treaty expires, and seeks protection.

 

[kaltorak]

I have seen this said a lot. But I think it is a bit of a cop out, depending how early you do it.

For example, If I do an early rush and take out an opponent and block a lot of land, the game will probably be a win. But there are a lot of things that can happen in the meantime which could mean a loss if not properly managed, such as over expansion and crippling the economy.

So when is it that you quit like this?

When I reach modern warfare usually.

 

[KeloGBites]

See? Every game is winnable (except Tundra starts with no seafood).