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Vassalage: +38 Free Units? How?
- Thread starter kadiablo
- Start date
Norvin_Green
Emperor
the "free" implies no unit cost for # of units
Matthew5117
Emperor
How does it choose which units to make "free"? The ones that cost the most or the least?
And how does it get X free units?
And how does it get X free units?
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
All units after a certain amount (which are free of amintenance) cost the same, they cost extra in enemy territory.
I think the number of free units is based on current populqation.
I think the number of free units is based on current populqation.
Refar
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2005
- Messages
- 4,608
It doesn't matter, they all cost the same...
The X depends mostly on your total population; I dont have the numbers ready, but i seem to remember, that its roughly 1 free unit per 4 citizens. (+ a few 'bonus' free units depending on difficultie)
Some Civics affect that.
They cost supply points if in neutral or enemy territory. You get a certain amount of free supply points basically like you get free unit maintenance, i.e. presumably based on pop and difficulty level (not civics though I presume). Run out of supply points and they cost GPT. Not sure if units in enemy territory cost more supply points. Not 100% sure if units in friendly (open borders) territory cost fewer supply points, but I am pretty sure friendly counts as neutral.
Matthew5117
Emperor
I noticed that when I delete my starting warrior that was automated halfway through the game, I get like 3 gpt back... and it wasn't in enemy land, it was either neutral or friendly land. (other civ's land is friendly land right?)
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2008
- Messages
- 27,995
It lowers the penalty for having them outside your borders by that many troops I believe, however don't be deceived, the civic cost itself can be pretty steep.
However, it's a useful tool for the offensive ability it grants, I'm starting to like it more when prepping war (because otherwise you'd want bureaucracy).
However, it's a useful tool for the offensive ability it grants, I'm starting to like it more when prepping war (because otherwise you'd want bureaucracy).
Celebithil
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2004
- Messages
- 219
If I recall correctly the extra maintenance cost (over a low cost civic) is so steep that in fact you will lose money going into vassalage unless you are organized. So you should not go into vassalage to save money (but for the two bonus xp). However it does make the civic almost as expensive as a low cost one, provided you have an army large enough it uses all the free units.
BTW You have to pay supply as soon as they are outside your cultural borders (I am not sure about cultural borders of vassals), so even in the terrain of a foreign friendly civ.
@Matthew: You can save 3GPT due to rounding: 1 from unit supply, 1 from unit cost, and 1 from inflation. The next unit might well save you nothing in GPT, as both costs are on average less than 1 per unit, but both are rounded.
BTW You have to pay supply as soon as they are outside your cultural borders (I am not sure about cultural borders of vassals), so even in the terrain of a foreign friendly civ.
@Matthew: You can save 3GPT due to rounding: 1 from unit supply, 1 from unit cost, and 1 from inflation. The next unit might well save you nothing in GPT, as both costs are on average less than 1 per unit, but both are rounded.
Artichoker
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2007
- Messages
- 1,711
That's not really a fair comparison since Barbarism has Low Upkeep, yet provides no benefits. Nationhood has No Upkeep, but it's not available until Nationalism.
If you compare the net cost of Vassalage with a Low Upkeep civic like Barbarism, however, it's typically a net gain in GPT if your army is large enough to use all the extra free units.
If you're Organized, however, Vassalage can actually give you a net gain in GPT compared to Nationhood, a No Upkeep civic.
Skallagrimson
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2006
- Messages
- 2,043
Vassalage and Bureaucracy are both "high" upkeep, but in Bureau you take the hit against XPs and unit maintenance cost. Include the one-city bonus involved and what that ultimately spells is a civic for small peacemongering principalities, not a large conquering empire.
Nicol.Bolas
King
actually in one game it enabled me to go 20%+ on sciecne slider. I had low pop but large army mostly outside
A_Hamster
Small Furry Animal
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2007
- Messages
- 627
You do have to pay for troops in a friendly vassal's territory. It is easily tested by creating a vassal on a different continent after a war of conquest. Your invasion force that you were not paying for since it was in your (new) territory, is now a huge drain.
huerfanista
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2006
- Messages
- 1,276
Artichoker has written extensively on this subject in his "Leveraging Vassalage" series.
and the answer is...?
I've read some of those, but he seems to use vassalage very little those games. And why would you even want to, outside of some very niche situations?
huerfanista
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2006
- Messages
- 1,276
The short answer is yes. You're offsetting a high-cost civic (vass) with a low cost civic (pac), and offsetting the pac penalty (increased unit cost) with the vass benefit (free units).
Well, that's the point (if I understand his strat correctly). Use of vass is targeted to specific time frames preceding war, so you don't stay in it all that long and you pair it with another civic switch (HR, pacifism) to save a turn of anarchy (2 civics cost 1 turn at normal speed).
I don't have any real experience with this - it takes a far more disciplined approach to the game than my own.
