Vassals and mana

[Thimblyjoe]

First off, you can vassalize human players, but that doesn't mean they have to give you their mana.

Second, I don't think that trading palace mana is a bug. Palace mana is just mana, it's treated like any other source of mana, I don't see what's wrong with that. I think the problem is that the AI needs to value that resource more.

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

The main reason guilds were removed was due to OOS errors in multi-player. Instead of disabling them in multi it was removed entirely. No option-just cut.

I also don't have the self-control to not do something that the game freely allows me to do- at least when it helps you as enormously as extra mana resources.

Your lack of self control should not be used as a pretext to nerf part of the game that most seem to like and don't think that its unbalanced. In fact there is an easier way to get a TOM victory. All you need is three or four mana sources in your boarders (and that is easy to do), build a tower, use meta magic to revert nodes back to raw mana, wash, rinse, and repeat. It can be done in less than 100 turns (once you get the required techs), saving up an engineer or two and you got a win faster than any other. It is not often you can vassalize enough civs to get the TOM in that time cause you still need the techs to build the towers.

 

[dwhee]

Your lack of self control should not be used as a pretext to nerf part of the game that most seem to like and don't think that its unbalanced.

You throw around the word nerf a lot. While I do wish that vassals' ability to trade palace-mana was eliminated altogether, that wasn't what I recommended in any recent post. I just want an option to play without it.

And I'm not using my "lack of self control as a pretext" for it. My pretext is that I think it's imbalanced and makes ToM too easy. My own lack of self control is the reason why you can't just suggest that I ignore an annoying "feature" that's present in every single one of my games that I cannot turn off. That's all I'm asking for- an off switch or a way to balance it out for players who prefer not to use vassals. The AI can ignore it just fine- they don't even see the value of the extra resources, and so they go about taking that last tiny little Doviello settlement because it would make a terrible vassal in almost any situation. But I'm human, so I'm never going to eliminate anyone provided I've discovered feudalism. Not so much imbalanced as it is lame for a dark fantasy mod.

Imagine if there was a "win" button in the lower left corner next to the map. You don't have to press it, but if you do you win. Some people might like the security of a "win" button, but for those that don't, it's good to have an option to disable it. That's where I'm at right now. I just don't see the logic in having a civ with 1 city and 1 pop provide all this all-important mana, only to have that mana disappear from the game once their city gets destroyed. And since the AI doesn't realize any of this, only the human player can exploit it. A win button would be simpler.

In fact there is an easier way to get a TOM victory. All you need is three or four mana sources in your boarders (and that is easy to do), build a tower, use meta magic to revert nodes back to raw mana, wash, rinse, and repeat. It can be done in less than 100 turns (once you get the required techs), saving up an engineer or two and you got a win faster than any other. It is not often you can vassalize enough civs to get the TOM in that time cause you still need the techs to build the towers.

I hadn't thought of that... That seems very broken to me.

Perhaps if players lost the advantages associated with the towers once they lost access to one of the 4 types of mana associated?

It does, however, take quite a long time to build individual towers one by one. If you used vassals for mana though (back to the topic at hand) I can imagine doing it very quickly with a number of different sources of mana.

 

[Guale]

You can just turn of vassals and stop requesting they take it out for those of us with some self control. Before vassals and metamagic mana were introduced (way back in fire) a ToM victory was nearly impossible without already winning conquest. This makes it a viable way to win in any game, not just ones where you happen to start next to practicaly every mana node. There have been things added to balancei t out even. Iirc the towers used to only require 3/4 of the mana types associated with them but now they require them all.

 

[dwhee]

Palace mana is just mana, it's treated like any other source of mana, I don't see what's wrong with that. I think the problem is that the AI needs to value that resource more.

...only it's not. Any other source of mana doesn't disappear when a civ loses its last city. Which is why I suggested that a civ "wins" a permanent source of mana upon the destruction of a rival civ- that would fix the problem for me, just because it discourages having tiny vassals.

You can just turn of vassals and stop requesting they take it out for those of us with some self control.

I never should have admitted that I lack self-control. Apparently no one on this forum actually knows what I meant or read the context of the remark, and simply identifies it as a weakness and a reason to ignore everything I say. Thanks, ffh community.

Actually, you fixed my problem! I'll just turn off vassals! Thanks man, I always hated vassals anyway.

Before vassals and metamagic mana were introduced (way back in fire) a ToM victory was nearly impossible without already winning conquest. This makes it a viable way to win in any game, not just ones where you happen to start next to practicaly every mana node. There have been things added to balancei t out even. Iirc the towers used to only require 3/4 of the mana types associated with them but now they require them all.

Well, first off you imply here that you use the same tactic that I use because I "lack self control." Do you believe it's balanced or don't you? How can it be when the AI doesn't value their mana resources at all?

So, they re-balance ToM for 0.4? Then they should re-re-balance it. I'm just objecting to the lameness of getting all your mana from vassals because it makes it illogical to destroy other civs entirely- something I think should be present in a dark fantasy mod themed around the apocalypse. If vassalizing civs gives you mana, that's fine- but destroying civs should give you mana as well.

BTW, if they re-balanced ToM for vassal mana, then shouldn't disabling vassals make a ToM victory really really hard? Like, even harder than it used to be in Fire?

 

[Guale]

I suppose it would make it more difficult but you could always either use the metamagic method, tough it out, or mod it yourself.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

How about this:

1.They take away the ability to demand a vassal give you resources or declare war on you. (requires SDK work beyond my ability, but should be possible)

2.They make it so you can instead demand they give you technologies or declare war on you.(requires SDK work beyond my ability, but should be possible)

3.They require you actually possess at least 1 of every mana type in order to build the Tower of Mastery, instead of just requiring the Towers that required you have 4 of the types at a time to build. (I was thinking that I'd have to use python or make SDK changes if I wanted them all to show up among the prereqs here because of the define NUM_BUILDING_PREREQ_OR_BONUSES being set to 5, but I might just be able to change this value to 21)

 

[WarKirby]

I think the problem just lies with the fact that palaces generate resources like that.

Simply having the palace not give mana would solve this problem, though it would bring new ones. Usually though, starting near raw mana nodes in the world isn't an issue. Most of the time I find 2 or 3 close enough to my starting position that I can get them before any other AI.

 

[zup]

I think you are right WarKirby. The problem is not AI, but palace mana.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Whatever, I still really want to be able to demand techs from my vassals, more than I really care about their mana.

I'm not really sure how we could take their palace mana away without making a whole new set of civs that differ from the main 21 civs just in that they have a generic non-mana-providing palace UB. You could make them start with a different palace pretty easily, but then they'd still be able to replace the palace with one that does provide mana when their empire gets large enough.

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

Simple if its not broke don't fix it, and it is not broke. Now your opinion assumes that it is broke, but thats your opinion. If there is something you want in the game mod it yourself - heck I have been asking for the ability for the Hippus to sale (and for other civs to buy) Hippus merc units. In my opinion it was an over site per their lore, so what did I do? I went and made my little modular Mod mod so my little Hippus empire could sale their services. Its not perfect, but it gets the job done. I would suggest you do the same, and leave a perfectly good game mechanic alone. Yes the AI can be improved and thats what they are working on, but to remove a feature for a VERY select few is not good for the whole. (Sniped rude comment from me) ...will be the last post about this issue from me... There is a point when your just beating a

 

[snarko]

I agree with being able to demand techs instead of resources. Especially since an AI master already give away all their techs to their vassals even if they could trade them for something.

 

[Neomega]

I wish I understood vassals before I destroyed Auric... would have been awesome having Ice mana.

In my games, the AI always takes on vassals, and does so many times I think way before they should give up fighting.

 

[FireBlaze]

I usually find that if i'm strong enough to vassal someone, then I am significantly more advanced then they are, which pretty much eliminates the point of demanding technologies.

Besides, if you can vassal enough people to get all their collective mana to build the ToM, then you probably were going to win anyways from your military (which should be able to steamroll everyone at that point if you have that many vassals). Even if your army isnt that great, you'd still have half the world backing you, dooming whatever civilization you set your eyes on. So winning by vassal mana is just another way to end the game after you essentially win.

 

[dwhee]

I think the problem just lies with the fact that palaces generate resources like that.

Simply having the palace not give mana would solve this problem, though it would bring new ones. Usually though, starting near raw mana nodes in the world isn't an issue. Most of the time I find 2 or 3 close enough to my starting position that I can get them before any other AI.

You're absolutely right. The palaces, and the fact that they can't be captured, are the problem that makes it so that a pop 1 city is just about as valuable as a vassal as 4 pop 5 cities or something similar. The mana is just too valuable to keep moving around and then disappear from the game once they get defeated.

How about this:

1.They take away the ability to demand a vassal give you resources or declare war on you. (requires SDK work beyond my ability, but should be possible)

2.They make it so you can instead demand they give you technologies or declare war on you.(requires SDK work beyond my ability, but should be possible)

3.They require you actually possess at least 1 of every mana type in order to build the Tower of Mastery, instead of just requiring the Towers that required you have 4 of the types at a time to build. (I was thinking that I'd have to use python or make SDK changes if I wanted them all to show up among the prereqs here because of the define NUM_BUILDING_PREREQ_OR_BONUSES being set to 5, but I might just be able to change this value to 21)

I like some of these ideas, but I doubt that most will. Apparently, most people like the ability of vassals to trade mana resources, so I'm actually at the point where I wish that they'd retain the ability to some degree (like being able to trade one palace resource at a time. possible?)

To balance it out for conquerors, they get a civ's associated mana type (permanent) whenever they conquer and eliminate a civ. Mind you, this is still going to make ToM victories happen rather quickly for my taste.

And yes, they really do need to do something about ToM only requiring 4 mana nodes. I was unaware of that until Darkwood brought it up.

Simple if its not broke don't fix it, and it is not broke. Now your opinion assumes that it is broke, but thats your opinion.

I should've checked your universal FFH factbook before bringing my opinion to the forums.

Take your broken game mechanics and go home.

I agree with being able to demand techs instead of resources. Especially since an AI master already give away all their techs to their vassals even if they could trade them for something.

I agree that my vassals should give me techs, but it's rarely an issue when I get a vassal. They are usually pretty technologically backward- so the trick is to funnel them down a certain line of research that you don't have. Then, when they finyally research a tech (usually takes em a while) you can just trade them a few old techs for it. It gives me an incentive to occasionally give my vassals techs that they need.

I usually find that if i'm strong enough to vassal someone, then I am significantly more advanced then they are, which pretty much eliminates the point of demanding technologies.

Yeah. That.

 

[phoulishwan]

I don't think there is a problem with a Vassals Palace mana. I wouldn't want a 1 pop 1 city vassal anyways. I want my vassals to have strong economies so they can assist me in my goals, I will take their palace mana no doubt but I'll give them other stuff in return to help them assist me in my goals. Palace mana is all well and good but it's not as over powering as you would make it out to be and I strongly believe that, even in previous versions, the bigger limitation to a ToM victory was hammers, and the fact that 90% of the world will DoW you the turn after you start building the ToM, in fact the only time I'll go for a ToM victory is when half or more of the world has submitted to my will so that any who oppose me would be forced to declare and trudge through my vassals to get to me to stop my ToM victory. In otherwords it's easier waiting out 80-100 turns to build it then it is to follow through with the next easiest Victory condition and it's time to end the game not keep on teching away to gain a two tier edge over any opponents who I could easily crush even with tech parity.

If I'm in a position that Palace Mana is game breaking because I have insanely powerful adepts, mages etc...then the simple fact is the game was won long ago and mopping up time has come and gone and yet for some inexplicable reason I keep trying to get more powerful instead of just finishing the game...3 Vassals might get you a tier 2 spell out of the gate and a couple tier 1's to boot, if you have more than 3 vassals pick a victory condition already and stop toying with the AI's, because you've already won the game...even if it's a huge map with 18 civs!

Additionally your comment:
"Do you believe it's balanced or don't you? How can it be when the AI doesn't value their mana resources at all?"

Is false, they value their mana immensely, if you tried by normal trade means to obtain even a single mana source (they'll only trade you their excess, btw...) they want 6-7 luxuries/health bonuses combined for 1 node, more if your already a huge powerful nation, nodes DO NOT come cheaply by any means through normal trade. The Vassal option is considered to be more of a forced tribute either they give you what you're demanding or you will annihlate them, that's why it says "time for you tribute, refusal means war"...

 

[westamastaflash]

I purposely gift cities in crappy locations to a vassal so they can still be alive for the palace mana....

 

[dwhee]

Additionally your comment:
"Do you believe it's balanced or don't you? How can it be when the AI doesn't value their mana resources at all?"

Is false, they value their mana immensely, if you tried by normal trade means to obtain even a single mana source (they'll only trade you their excess, btw...) they want 6-7 luxuries/health bonuses combined for 1 node, more if your already a huge powerful nation, nodes DO NOT come cheaply by any means through normal trade. The Vassal option is considered to be more of a forced tribute either they give you what you're demanding or you will annihlate them, that's why it says "time for you tribute, refusal means war"...

Mostly valid points you made. Especially the point that if I'm getting lots of vassals, the game is indeed pretty much won already. But in the game that caused me to start this thread, it was me (the Sheaim) and Perpentach with about 3 weak vassals each (I had 4 until the Calabim betrayed me). At this point, I still had a very large Balseraph army to defeat before I won the game.

Being the climactic battle of the game, I wanted to be on equal footing with the clown king, so out of curiosity I checked to see if he was taking palace mana from his numerous vassals. Obviously, he wasn't. And obviously I was cuz I'm not a noob like Perpentach. Specifically, this is what I was referring to when I said that mana is cheap and the ai doesn't value it- even when a magic-savvy civ has tons of vassals, they do nothing with all their vassals' mana.

Also, I've never liked that fact that you can't ask for tribute without any kind of negotiations- but that's civ, not FFH. If I ask what my vassal wants in return for 1 palace mana resource, they'll ask me for everything I've got. When I demand all 3 palace resources, they give them up no problem. They are very unpredictable negotiators, my vassals...

In other words, mana is cheap and the ai doesn't value it, provided that they're not past a certain threshold where they won't give you anything even when vassalized. And yes, I suppose it makes sense that they will give up all of their resources to their masters- but I believe palace resources should either be eliminated or be a special case. It's silly to even try trading by normal means for mana with the ai (unless maybe if you have other mana to trade). If you trade the AI 1 gunpowder, 1 iron, 1 copper, and half a dozen other resources for 1 unit of fire mana, you're not playing the game right- so it's irrelevant that that's what they ask for.

 

[Kyroshill]

I purposely gift cities in crappy locations to a vassal so they can still be alive for the palace mana....

I need to start doing this just so they don't tell me to piss off three turns after they capitulated.

Funny part is that I'm not a warmonger.... I end up vassalizing civs that already hated me enough to DoW.... guess I need to learn to make them a little happier so I can actually mine some mana

 

[leo.]

vassal states came up first with warlords, however, its a big difference if you demand ressources from someone who is on your team or a vassal.
if you demand too much a vassal can decline and can unvassal in this way.

if i play a custom game i usually put vassals off, but the main reason for that was that ai used it too much. ai just gives up too fast, but i think there were already made changes, havent tried yet.

in a team game like in the scenario it sounds logical that you get the mana of the others. anyway ai usually doesnt give out its palace mana, except you defeated it already. i see nothing bad in that, except the overuse of hero affinities, like sun or nature in this case.