Vast unkown battles.

onejayhawk

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In opposition to the dicussion of disasters, there are the stalemates and the irrelevants. The Eastern Front of WW II is famous for Stalingrad and Kursk to the point that many other battles involving significant forces are overlooked. The vast pressed forces of WW I resulted in some horrific casulaties, Marne, Verdun, Somme, Passendaele. Who speaks of Cambrai and its 100,000 dead, except to mention a new usage of armor?

What other places have men died in large numbers, but mostly been forgotten because nothing of pivotal political or military consiquence was gained or lost?

J
 
I think the Burma Campaign of WWII is something that is not well remembered and in the end didn't have critical importance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Campaign

And it wasn't small.
That's a good one, though I disagree about the importance.

It was of significant morale importance, since it was the only area of the theater where the Japanese were not advancing almost at will. The "Flying Tigers" were the great American folk heroes of the first half of the war. General Slim was nearly as effective on the ground, yet his name will invoke puzzled looks from some otherwise reasonably knowledgable people.

As to the military importance, it was a strategic drain on the Japanese from beginning to end. The could not win, and would not quit. It was a factor in the blunting of the moves toward both Australia and India. Consider, for example, the situation if the Japanese were able to freely operate long range aircraft off the Malay penninsula. They did operate Zeroes as recon craft, draining fighter craft and pilots from other uses.

J
 
Richard III said:
Slim, he's credited with winning the twin battles of Imphal and Kohima, regarded by most military historians who know of it as the last and latest of the "turning point" victories for the Allies alongside Stalingrad, Kursk, Alamein, Tunisia, Guadalcanal and Midway, although given the nature of jungle warfare, the numbers engaged were far smaller than all of the above examples save Midway and Guadalcanal. The battle was described by two American history profs as featuring "the most savage fighting on any front in the Second World War, including the eastern front."

The problem of course, is that the CBI theatre is known as "the forgotten war" for a reason - few reporters covered this confusing mishmash - and no wonder, since Slim's XIVth Army included Britons, Americans, Indians, Chinese, Burmese and Africans. But had Imphal gone the other way, the Japanese could have prolonged the war considerably, since China - and potentially, India - would almost certainly have collapsed in early 1944.

Before Imphal/Kohima, Slim had spent a year retraining and re-engaging the shattered Burma army to build it to elite jungle fighting standards, using tactics and approaches that resembled what Patton did with Third Army in Europe. Slim stripped down supplies to third-world standards, arguing that most supplies were wasted in the jungle - an easy feat, given an almost total lack of support from home. He created a logistical net and supply net in eastern India from scratch. He forced every unit to train to combat standards so there would be no need to guard "weak" logistics, medical or rear units, and was constantly skeptical of special ops forces because "every soldier should be an elite soldier." He created history's first successful all-air supply net, thanks to the help of US air transport units that cheerfully worked with him without the kaka that troubled allied units in Europe.

He trained troops to ignore Japanese flanking attacks ("if a Japanese force pushed into our rear, we had to learn to think as though it was the japanese who were surrounded"). He also accomplished something MacArthur never bothered to do because he was an a*shole - Slim reduced casualty rates from disease to almost zero by imposing harsh discipline on officers who did not observe rules on clothing and protective gear in the jungle, and he even gave XIVth Army a distinctive jungle warfare uniform to increase morale - "to be disciplined, soldiers have to look disciplined" (I'm paraphrasing a famous quote of his). He reorganized the medical evac system to reduce the turnaround time for casualties (since he could rarely expect replacement troops from home). He pioneered the use of Allied tanks in the jungle in the CBI theatre, coining the phrase. "the more you use, the fewer you lose" to explain his counterintuitive philosophy of jungle-based armored thrusts.

But that's just training.

Slim won Imphal by making a choice few other US/UK generals had to make - he chose to retreat. XIVth Army was in the midst of an offensive into the Arawak region; the push was designed to throw the Japanese off-balance and get Allied forces used to larger jungle operations. Unbeknownst to Slim, the Japanese had planned a concurrent and massive counterattack, designed to invade India and cut off supplies to the beleagured Chinese for ever. Although Allied troops to the south (including my grandfather with the 17th Indian Division) were doing damage to the Japanese right flank, Slim realized that by pulling his southern flank back rapidly with a forced march, he could drag the Japanese to the end of their supply lines, straining their ability to sustain the strength of their offensive. To do this, Slim would have to rely on a supply model that had already failed in Russia - he would have to supply most of the XIVth entirely by air. Sensing it was worth the gamble, he ordered the retreat.

This was also risky given that the chosen points of defence - Imphal and Kohima - didn't actually have any sizable units defending them when they were selected as the rally points. But the pullback barely succeeded in getting the troops there in time, and the Japanese were stopped there and cut to shreds in a series of engagements that resembled a jungle Stalingrad. The Japanese were fought to exhaustion - made easier by the fact that their replacements were far behind the "unexpectedly rapid" japanese advance. Then, in a Zhukovesque maneuver, XIVth counterattacked, surrounding and destroying the overextended Japanese offensive.

Later, Slim built on that record with his advance into Burma, annihilating Japanese forces in front of him with a surprise corps-sized flanking maneuver through the jungle, concluding with the battle for the key city of Meiktila. This trapped the bulk of the Japanese forces in Burma to the north, away from its transport net, pushing them against monsoon-swollen rivers and exposing the road to Rangoon to a swift armored push.

All this while commanding an army that spoke about 15 languages, with virtually no logistical support from home and lousy support from India, against an army that had performed brilliantly in the jungle in 1941-43. And, without any serious errors or defeats. If you think I'm just putting a shine on the guy because my grandfather was one of the fellas wearing a 14th Army bush hat, note that Slim was promoted to Field-Marshal and Supreme Allied commander, land forces Southeast Asia in 1945, then made governor-general in Australia, and was later made Chief of the Imperial General Staff over the objections of Montgomery, despite a lack of any political connections.

R.III

From the archives.

J
 
Operation Bagration comes to mind.
While America was 'winning' the war in Normandy the Soviets decimated army group centre in Russia and inflicted almost as many casualties as they did at Stalingrad.
 
Operation Bagration comes to mind.
While America was 'winning' the war in Normandy the Soviets decimated army group centre in Russia and inflicted almost as many casualties as they did at Stalingrad.
How this is unknown?

How someone can not be aware one of the most largest land operations ever conducted in the history of warfare? I mean it was monumental. We're talking about destroying armies in Army Group Centre here.

Calling it a "battle" is bit of strech since it was series of battles, a campaign or as title suggest an operation (in massive scale).
 
I think the Burma Campaign of WWII is something that is not well remembered and in the end didn't have critical importance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Campaign

And it wasn't small.

Operation Bagration comes to mind.
While America was 'winning' the war in Normandy the Soviets decimated army group centre in Russia and inflicted almost as many casualties as they did at Stalingrad.

Yeah, I mentioned Minsk in the other "disasterous battles" thread, but I would definitely say it is overlooked in importance by Kursk and Stalingrad.

Here are a few I can think of which don't get much attention, yet were rather important.

Battle of 73 Easting; 22 Februay, 1991: The American tankers generate a massively one-sided victory in the M1A1 Abrams' first engagement with Soviet equipment. I don't think they lost a single tank, yet they cut through dug-in Iraqi tank batallions like tissue paper.

East Africa Campaign; 10 June, 1940 - 27 November, 1941: An oft-forgotten campaign that was fought almost entirely using colonial levies, and with some interesting battles and situations. It was the only theater where Italian Air Power dominated, until it was weakened by supply loss from Allied pressure.

North Yemen Civil War; 1962-1970: No one EVER remembers this one. It was basically Nasserite Egypt's Vietnam War.

Battle of Key West; 20 September, 1995: Best described by the Conch Republic wiki page:
The Great Invasions of 1995
On September 20, 1995, it was reported that the 478th Public Affairs Battalion of the United States Army Reserve was to conduct a training exercise simulating an invasion of a foreign island. They were to land on Key West and conduct affairs as if the islanders were foreign. However, apparently no one from the 478th notified Key West officials of the exercise.

Seeing another chance at publicity, Wardlow and the forces behind the 1982 Conch Republic secession mobilized the island for a full-scale war (in the Conch Republic, this involves firing water cannons from fireboats and hitting people with stale Cuban bread), and protested to the Department of Defense for arranging this exercise without consulting the City of Key West. The leaders of the 478th issued an apology the next day, and they submitted to a surrender ceremony on September 22.

During the Federal government shutdown of 1995, as a protest, the Conch Republic launched a full scale invasion of Fort Jefferson, located in Dry Tortugas National Park, in order to reopen it. Inspired by efforts of the Smithsonian Institution to keep its museums open by private donations, local residents had raised private money to keep the park running (a closed park would damage the tourist-dependent local economy), but could find no one to accept the money and reopen the park.

When officials attempted to enter the monument, they were cited. When the citation was contested in court the following year, the resultant case, The United States of America v. Peter Anderson, was quickly dropped.
 
What about all those African battles in WW1?
 
How much did they affect the outcome? I thought that basically they just tied down each side's colonial forces and Germany's colonies got taken anyways. Could be wrong, all the books I can find focus on the Western Front.
 
The battle of El Alamein was pretty spectacular and interesting as it was the notorious Fox (Rommel) biggest defeat by Montgomery and basically it almost gave total control of North Africa to the Alies. It was also the first big victory of the Allies.
 
The battle of El Alamein was pretty spectacular and interesting as it was the notorious Fox (Rommel) biggest defeat by Montgomery and basically it almost gave total control of North Africa to the Alies. It was also the first big victory of the Allies.

Hardly unknown though. Even i, not a twentieth century entusiast, have heard of it.
 
What about all those African battles in WW1?
Well, for the most part, they were over inside of a year, except for the extremely well known Tanganyikan campaign in which Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck earned his reputation as one of the only brilliant commanders of the war. So either they didn't qualify as 'vast' or they didn't qualify as 'unknown'.
The battle of El Alamein was pretty spectacular and interesting as it was the notorious Fox (Rommel) biggest defeat by Montgomery and basically it almost gave total control of North Africa to the Alies. It was also the first big victory of the Allies.
Yeah, but Monty made sure everybody within five lightyears knew about how he 'whipped' Rommel. Does it really qualify as 'unknown'?

What is relatively more unknown are the first eleven Battles of the Isonzo River of World War I, in which Italian troops tried to get to Trieste and the Austrians stopped them quickly every time. Italy's Luigi Cadorna sent wave after wave of dogfaces into the dug-in Austrian positions, fighting in terrible terrain, and refused to flinch. The Italians got slaughtered. Only with the Battle of Caporetto (also known as the Twelfth Battle of the Isonzo) did the meat grinder stop. Cadorna was relieved in favor of the much more competent Diaz, and Italy managed to reverse the effects of Caporetto (with significant Anglo-Franco-American assistance) with the victory of Vittorio Veneto the next year.

But yeah, they might not really qualify as 'unknown' (especially as compared to the North Yemen Civil War - nice one, Cheezy :)), but they're relatively obscure.
 
In WWII some of the later battles of the Italian campaign (such as the Gothic Line) were overshadowed by battles in France and Germany
also, the invasion of Southern France (operation Dragoon, I think) is omitted in many history books
 
I remembered this one while searching for car parts today.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tuyut%C3%AD

The largest pitched battle in the history of South America, and the second bloodiest battle in the Western Hemisphere, and no one knows it happened. The battle, combined with the naval defeat at Riachuelo, halted the Paraguayan offensive completely, and gave the Allies the upper-hand.
 
The Second Siege of Zaragoza (1809) during the peninsular war was a Stalingrad type battle in the Napoleonic wars, marked by the insanely stubborn resistance and the brutal street-to-street fighting.

About 30 000 Spanish soldiers plus upwards of 20 000 civilians took part in the defence of the city, it was block by block "war to the knife" as General Palafox put it, and they fought until typhus and lack of survivors meant a mere "cessation of resistance" rather than a surrender.

The city was effectively leveled in the process, and the population dropped from about 100 000 pre-war to somewhere in the vicinity of 12 000 afterwards. 54 000 people died thanks to massive losses from disease and hunger as well as the fighting, whilst I assume the rest fled or fought elsewhere in the country.

You could probably throw the Battle of Teruel out there too.
 
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