Venice, a weak civ in Brave New World? Let´s see...

[eternalblue]

Ok so, I was starting a new CIV5 game Brave New World: Random Leader, on Continents, Standard map ( 8 civilizations with 16 city states ), on Prince difficulty, and with the standard resources and standard speed... I´m just starting every game in the same way because I like to discover and experience in different way every time I play from begining...

The random leader was Enrico Dandolo from Venice, and the map was very good when I was starting: on a costal land in the south, near a river with some resources like fish, cows and jems.
I just start to produce a scout to explore the land and I was producing in time some units and all that it needs the city to balance the happiness, money, food, production, culture and science. I was meeting the rusians in the north east , in the north the greeks and in the north west the germans, all nations very friendly with me. those was the nations with I was sharing my continent, despite of another 4 that I just did not have time to meet on the other continent.

I just want from the start to work on a diplomatic victory , so the "key" was to improve the money from my "empire" (city), and the good relationship with the city states and the others civilizations.

I was evolving with the city in borders and in technology , with the best ranking in money compared with all the civilizations. a good start. I was starting to make some units and put them on my borders to mantain some military power, to defence in case of barbarian invasion or some war with another civilizations...

The increase of the money was too fast because I just have some merchants of venice like unique units and I was conducting them on special trade missions on some city states... (I just dont want to utilize the second ability of the merchants, to puppet city states because I was thinking to have them like allies , strong relationship to conduct the diplomatic victory.)


So all fine, now the party starts:

In the classical/medieval era the russians, greeks and the germans was asking me to accept embassy. so why not? then 3 turns later they asked if we can have a declaration of friendship? so why not? ok I will be diplomat why not, I want to be a very nice civilization.. and finnaly they asked me: open borders? allrighty then , yes I want that I am a city with a great trade route and I want those borders to not limit us... let´s do it to be a great influencial traiding city ( 5500 money +10 per turn) and to have a good diplomacy... OHHHHHHH F*** NOOOOOOOOOO!!!
When we have open borders all 3 civilizations was entering my borders with some units and F***** me on being friendly and without any problems in the past... all 3 nations... and I was buying units making some tactical movement with ranged units and the melee combat but finally they plundered my territory and I cant stand battling in front of 3 nations with a lot of units ... My military was normal not so advanced but neither the AI... so finaly they was fighting who from all 3 nations will "eat" my rich city... and what was that? with just a city without posibility to just expand because you can´t have the ability to creat settlers you are useless in front of A.I not just in war but in expanding , to make a big score... you can´t...

SO THE CONCLUSION IS....... what happened ????

 

[Mr_jones]

If you have 5500 gold why didn't you purchase some defensive upgrades on your city and units.

 

[Insane Chef]

do you have a save file? it would be interesting to look at.
i usually just go completely defensive and mow down their army with ranged units whenever im attacked. the ai isnt too good at wars, it tends to just throw all its units at you for you to kill then burns out.

 

[Glauki]

The big problem of Venice is its military because only one city can produce units. When the 3 other civs saw you did not have units they tried to backstab you.
The Russians and the Greeks like too expand too, so they have a big army at the beginning of the game and are really hard to fight.

 

[satchel]

I enjoy playing Venice and on King level I actually find it a little too easy. I don't know exactly what happened in your game but here are a few things to keep in mind:

* The relative strength of your military - in terms of numbers, not just technology - affects the AI's decision to go to war with you. So it is important to keep a lot of units on hand, as many as you would have if you had 3-4 times as many cities. Use those fat coffers to buy units and keep them upgraded. This both protects you from DOWs, and when they do happen, ensures you have a strong defensive military to beat them back.

* Sounds like you were doing okay with diplomatic relations. Did you also have active trade routes and trades with the other AIs? An AI that is actually making money from trade routes with you, or relying on you for a key luxury, is somewhat less likely to declare war. Venice gets gobs and gobs of trade routes - work them! I don't know what era you were in but +10 gpt sounds very, very, very low for Venice and makes me wonder if you were neglecting those trade routes.

* I understand where you are coming from with not buying city-states, but I have found that it is useful to buy a city-state or two once they have grown into decent-size cities with decent-sized militaries. For one thing, you get an instant boost of units (see my first point above). For another, diversifying your luxury pool makes your trade routes more lucrative, and picking up duplicates gives you extras to trade around to other AIs (see my second point above).

* I don't find that there is usually any reason to grant open borders unless you are a strong leader in culture and tourism and want to get open borders from the AIs in order to push your tourism on them.

 

[seasnake]

Buy Units in your puppets, you need to keep the units high. Build a lot of forts near the borders of your city and keep them manned, you should have the money to maintain the troops.

I had a great venice game (huge, tectonics map, king) where I had going into the renaissance a double-line of forts right outside my venice borders and I had lined it with melee units in front and ranged behind (cho-ko-nu, I had a military city state ally that gifted them to me, it was sweet) and a few knights. I had my workers build a road network along that border.

Only one guy ever declared war on me and it was like sending his troops through a grinder. Eventually I had earned a couple of great generals that I parked within those same troops. Then I citadel bombed and got even more luxuries in my empire.

 

[Koiranputki]

Venice is probably my second favourite civ to play ...[after Spain...] I find Venice quite "doable".

I would just keep "tweaking" how you play this civ and see what works best. Having several range units and two or three pikemen seem to work for me in that early part of the game. Also try at some point early...but not too early ...to buy off a nearby CS....try to wait until they have their city tiles improved and have several units. And, as necessary, use your Gold pile to buy units where you think you need them most.

Also if you think a DOW is not too far off, try not to send your Cargo Ships to that civ....even if it means less Gold....but if you think a DOW is far enough off then you can trade with that civ and just soak up the eventual trade route loss.

In one recent Venice game I had Attila as my wonderful neighbour. So I "just knew" there would be a war in my near future....and he didn't disappoint.... But despite a few tense turns he got nowhere....

Even things like winning the World's Fair race are quite achievable as Venice...usually by that time I have a couple of CSs...maybe more, and, although you may have to pay off the current construction project, the puppets will automatically switch to World's Fair production.....something that doesn't seem to happen with non-Venice puppets.


Venice...a fun civ to play, but you do have to adjust your play style as necessary...

 

[echolalia]

And don't forget that you can puppet cities that you take in war. All three of your neighbours just love to spam cities.

 

[Ronza149]

Learn this lesson,never ever give open borders to AI,don't let them see that all your garrison is a warrior.

 

[JustinianIV]

Buy Units in your puppets, you need to keep the units high. Build a lot of forts near the borders of your city and keep them manned, you should have the money to maintain the troops.

I had a great venice game (huge, tectonics map, king) where I had going into the renaissance a double-line of forts right outside my venice borders and I had lined it with melee units in front and ranged behind (cho-ko-nu, I had a military city state ally that gifted them to me, it was sweet) and a few knights. I had my workers build a road network along that border.

Only one guy ever declared war on me and it was like sending his troops through a grinder. Eventually I had earned a couple of great generals that I parked within those same troops. Then I citadel bombed and got even more luxuries in my empire.

Do people actually build forts? I thought it went the way of automated workers.

 

[George Abitbol]

I don't understand the OP... Signed open borders and they invaded him?
Also, with the Commerce tree (obvious for Venice) Landshnekts are available and usable as they are purchased, wich can be good in case of invasion.

 

[George Abitbol]

Learn this lesson,never ever give open borders to AI,don't let them see that all your garrison is a warrior.

The AI knows your military forces anyway, whitout seeing your territory.
Skaka once DoW me, he was at the opposite side of my continent, I had a tiny army at the moment.

 

[sendos]

OP forgot to bribe his neigbours to attack each other. It's a great way to distract your neighbours, especially those like Shaka and Attila. Factors that make this difficult:

- AI's won't accept a DoW on another civ that has a huge army. They'll say no deal is possible, full stop.
- AI's won't attack a civ that is good friends with them.

Factors that make this easy:

- Common foe.
- You're bribing them to attack a civ that barely has an army.

 

[Cedbird]

So all fine, now the party starts:

In the classical/medieval era the russians, greeks and the germans was asking me to accept embassy. so why not? then 3 turns later they asked if we can have a declaration of friendship? so why not? ok I will be diplomat why not, I want to be a very nice civilization.. and finnaly they asked me: open borders? allrighty then , yes I want that I am a city with a great trade route and I want those borders to not limit us... let´s do it to be a great influencial traiding city ( 5500 money +10 per turn) and to have a good diplomacy... OHHHHHHH F*** NOOOOOOOOOO!!!
When we have open borders all 3 civilizations was entering my borders with some units and F***** me on being friendly and without any problems in the past... all 3 nations... and I was buying units making some tactical movement with ranged units and the melee combat but finally they plundered my territory and I cant stand battling in front of 3 nations with a lot of units ... My military was normal not so advanced but neither the AI... so finaly they was fighting who from all 3 nations will "eat" my rich city... and what was that? with just a city without posibility to just expand because you can´t have the ability to creat settlers you are useless in front of A.I not just in war but in expanding , to make a big score... you can´t...

SO THE CONCLUSION IS....... what happened ????

Someone may have already said this.But I love Venice.I was wondering if it is too overpowered actually.The thing that I caught right off is you said you decided not to annex CS with your GM.I think that is your big mistake.Annexing CS a few of them will boost your military your science your gold your Great people.It will also give you a buffer between you and your enemies and strategic advantages where you need it.If not Annexing you have to buy units with all that gold you should have. No problem no one will mess with you unless they want to get hammered.

 

[phillipwyllie]

I'm trying out Venice at the moment, and although a bad civ for science it's a great civ for gold. And we all know gold can be used to persuade almost any civ to DOW etc......

 

[GoStu]

Venice is okay for exploit the idiot AI, but it's not a civ I would ever choose to play against people with. Any city can be broken, given the effort, and Venice only ever has one city that 'matters'. If you lose Venice itself, game over.

 

[Arcaian]

Venice is okay for exploit the idiot AI, but it's not a civ I would ever choose to play against people with. Any city can be broken, given the effort, and Venice only ever has one city that 'matters'. If you lose Venice itself, game over.

Not really; you can buy your first CS really early (optics!) so you can effectively get a nice 2nd city faster than almost anyone else (a CS after 30-40 turns is much better than a second city laid down at turn 20), which can go on to be very good cities. On top of that, you don't need to make it impossible to take, just make it easier to take someone else's city (which is easy enough) and then suddenly you've won the game. Remember you can rush-buy units in ALL your puppets as well.

 

[Koiranputki]

Not really; you can buy your first CS really early (optics!) so you can effectively get a nice 2nd city faster than almost anyone else (a CS after 30-40 turns is much better than a second city laid down at turn 20), which can go on to be very good cities. On top of that, you don't need to make it impossible to take, just make it easier to take someone else's city (which is easy enough) and then suddenly you've won the game. Remember you can rush-buy units in ALL your puppets as well.

Yeah...this is, more or less, how I look at it....sometimes I'll buy a CS as a diversionary tactic...though maybe a a little more nuanced than for that one single purpose.

In my recent Venice game where Attila was my "gracious" neighbour I did this sort of thing...and although he still sent units to attack Venice, he spent more time and energy on my two (...at that point in the game) CS puppets....both of whom had already nicely equipped themselves with updated military units....though I had the cash to add a few supplements...

 

[eternalblue]

do you have a save file? it would be interesting to look at.
i usually just go completely defensive and mow down their army with ranged units whenever im attacked. the ai isnt too good at wars, it tends to just throw all its units at you for you to kill then burns out.

Sorry , I dont have a save file... they throw units at me in no tactical matter.. but overwelmed my city with the number of the units that all 3 civilisations had... I just spent all my 5500 money on units but because of pillaging my territory they was cancelling all my trades and stop making money... just loosing everithing because of the limit of 1 city...

 

[Brettapod]

Giving Open Borders allows civs to see your territory, which will usually make them covet your lands, especially if you have a good start.