Venting Frustration @ this game.

[Blockinlick]

Feel like I just wasted 8 hours of my life.

I grew up as a teen playing this game when it was the Minecraft of its time. I tried Civ5 and didn't like it (I really don't want to discuss this, but suffice it to say that it's mostly 1UPT) and I tried Civ6 and didn't like it for the same reasons. Civ4 has stood the test of time for me though.

I absolutely love the premises of the game, the way it operates, the deep strategy and map utilization & whatnot. However, I have a love/hate relationship with it because the diplomacy seems nonsensical and game-breaking. It feels like a factor of luck and randomness instead of strategy or skill, because no matter how hard I try to please everyone, there's that random chance that a few will just dogpile on me for petty reasons.

This last game (Noble difficulty), I was trying to play peacekeeper (Huge map with 16 Civs) with Genghis and Napoleon bordering me. I was handing out gold and techs hand-over-fist trying to keep everyone happy. I do understand that in trying to keep everyone happy, it will make things worse with some. Like Genghis Kahn, you cannot avoid conflict with this guy if he borders you. Nonetheless, I felt like I was doing a pretty good job overall keeping everyone happy. Then out of nowhere, Isabella, Montezuma, Napoleon, & Genghis Khan declare WAR on me.

-I held them off for awhile and thanks to my diplomacy, managed to get a few allies to declare war on both Napoleon and Genghis.
-Then I managed to make peace with Genghis.
-Somehow, Napoleon slipped a large army through that I didn't see and sacked one of my 3 cities.
-Then Genghis and Isabella declared war again.
-I made peace with Napoleon and Isabella and Genghis was just wrecking my tiles.
-Later Napoleon declared war again and Alexander joined in too.
-Alexander started wrecking my tiles too and Isabella declared war... again.
-After awhile I made with peace with Alexander, Isabella, and Napoleon again.
-By this point, I was shattered. All of my offensive units were wiped out. All I had left were the units defending my cities.
-So Genghis Kahn just came in and wiped me out.

It just seemed so random and nonsensical. I was leading in tech, gold, and overall score and my army was fairly strong. But there's not much you can do when 5 civs decide to be jerks for no reason at all. It really sucks to put 8 hours into a game like that, be doing well, then get wiped out by something that feels completely out of your control.

I don't mind losing or getting outplayed. I don't mind getting punished by mistakes and learning. But I feel like this isn't the case. I feel like I played pretty much as well as I could have and that there wasn't anything to learn here except that this game sometimes just decides that you're not allowed to win or do well and sodomizes you.

Maybe I lost simply by virtue of bordering Genghis Kahn and Napoleon? That said still, there was zero I could do to avoid my fate, so it just feels like 8 hours of my life wasted.

It honestly seems like the AI has a bias against the player. As if they're far more aggressive towards the player than each other. So maybe my only mistake was playing against 16 civs and the most hostile & aggressive ones just happened to be close to me, and assuming my bias theory is correct, that was a recipe for inevitable loss.

I love this game, but I hate it too.

 

[Fippy]

Maybe there are key parts of diplo that you are missing.
You are not keeping everyone happy by handing techs (or gold) out, can only get a maximum bonus of +4 (fair trade) this way.
There are many more factors..
* Open Borders give +2 over time (each 25t on normal speed +1 while they are open)
* Resi trades also +2 over time (50t for +1, if you trade more you reduce the time with each)
* Reli is huge for diplo, shared can give up to +8 (and different -4)

About 50% of AI leaders can plot at pleased, and the other half cannot.
Nappy, Genghis, Izzy, Alex and Monty you all need at friendly.
All of those (cept Izzy) are warmongers, if they are cautious you are always in great danger with them.

And well, if you sit on 3 cities and advance them in tech, you are asking for trouble
Esp. since they now have techs to bribe each other *against* you, if you are ganged on by so many AIs that either means AP vote or "here have some techs and join my war".

 

[lymond]

Yep, Diplo is nicely complex and there are many things you can do from a diplo perspective to change the course of he game or stave off attacks. Still, it is very important to understand how leaders are coded. Having a neighbor like Genghis or Monty is almost always going to be a problem so you deal with it sooner than later - one way or another. The following strategy articles breaks down the leaders in detail based on their coding:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/

Very useful information there on a variety of parameters like who won't or will plot war at Pleased.

Simply gifting gold all the time is not doing you much good. As My pointed out above, there are several ways to build relations over time. Also, if demands or requests are not too ridiculous it is often best just to give in. For instance, someone like Joao, who does not plot at Pleased anyway, is often inclined to demand or request a resource or tech early on. Once you do you basically never have to worry about him.

Regardless of all that, I think the main issue with your game right now can be gleaned from some of what you wrote. I'm not sure where you are in the game, but the fact that AIs are actually declaring war and the fact you have currency at least suggests its not all that early. 3 cities is just very bad. Sounds to me that you have a lot to learn about basic game mechanics. And also, your game settings may be questionable. I suggest playing normal speed/normal size maps/ 6 AIs. You will learn faster and be able to deal with the nuances of diplo better while you learn.

The best place to learn and ask questions is over here in Strategy & Tips forum:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/forums/civ4-strategy-tips.155/

Just for perspective, once you learn and masters even just a few basic concepts you should absolutely destroy Noble level AI. With that said, this is a very complex game and there's a wealth of info and fun to be had while learning.

 

[Blockinlick]

Thanks to everyone for advice, but I do feel a little condescended.

You are not keeping everyone happy by handing techs (or gold) out, can only get a maximum bonus of +4 (fair trade) this way.
There are many more factors..

I'm aware. What I meant was that I was meeting tributes and giving help when requested. I chose to forgo any religion, because all that does is guarantee war. I chose civics that Genghis and Napoleon liked and traded with them when I could.

The only thing I refused to do was cancel deals with anyone. Which apparently is enough to piss Napoleon and Genghis off.

Reli is huge for diplo

Sorry, I don't use guides much or discuss this game a lot, so I have no idea what "Reli" is.

Nappy, Genghis, Izzy, Alex and Monty you all need at friendly.

Getting them at friendly without abandoning all diplomacy with all other civs seems impossible.

And well, if you sit on 3 cities and advance them in tech, you are asking for trouble

Care to explain why?

I'm not sure where you are in the game, but the fact that AIs are actually declaring war and the fact you have currency at least suggests its not all that early

I think the game ended around 200AD. I was in constant war from 1,000BC TO 200AD. Up until around 1,000BC, I had everyone but Napoleon and Genghis at pleased or better.

Then, out of nowhere, Isabella, Alexander, and Montezuma decided they couldn't be pleased anymore. I have no idea why.

Next thing I know, I'm in endless conflict with 5 civs for 1,200 years.

3 cities is just very bad

...and why?

I don't think a single civ but Genghis had more than 4 cities. Remember, there were 16 civs not including me. It was too crowded to have more than 3 cities. Once I settled my third city, a fourth would have been built on awful positions like Tundra or Desert.

Sounds to me that you have a lot to learn about basic game mechanics.

I know about ideal start locs, starting with worker ( I play Ghandi after all), growth to work to culture priority, city specialization, working tiles based on those priorities, and research paths.

What basics exactly are you presuming I am ignorant of? Because it seems to me that you're conflating basics with intermediate nuances and from my perspective, that comes off as lightly condescending.

 

[lymond]

Reli is just her shorthand for religion

First, to be clear, this is a friendly forum. I realize you have some frustration with the game at the moment, but the folks here are only trying to give you guidance and advice. Folks that have played the game regularly for 12 years or more and play on IMM/Deity level. What you take as condescension is just observation of fact albeit, objectively, I can see the point. Yet, subjectively, concern of perceived condescension is counter-productive to the learning process. You have a lot to learn.

Most here will answer your questions mainly in generalizations as many times it takes writing a manual or guide just to explain it all - and things about this game are very situational. Civ IV is a game that one learns quickest by playing/playing and reading the forum (or watching vids). One's effort in learning probably lines up with one's interest in improving overall and playing higher difficulty. Folks are simply different. I know quite a few folks on cfc, including staff, that have played the game for years and really not advance much higher than Noble or Prince level. It's just simply that is not of interest to them, and that is fine. We play games for different reasons. The point is - do you want to learn or do you want to continue getting shellacked by Noble level AI.

If you do want to learn, spend more time in Strategy & Tips.. Get involved a bit. Follow and play Nobles Club games. Join in on forum or shadow games that others are playing, as other folks help those folks. Or start one yourself.

If that is not of interest to you, best we can do is give you a few tidbits of advice and guidance like already given.

I'd add a few more:

1) If you have psychos near you then kill them
2) In this game you are always looking to expand one way or another. Any experienced player that hears 3 cities mid/late game screams wrong. It does not matter if you don't have "room", if that is actually a reality, but you should expand or conquer.
3) Don't be afraid to choose religious blocs. Religion might be avoided for a while to see how things shake out, but it is also powerful. You can bribe friends into war. (Sometimes choosing no religion is indeed the correct option, but if playing a Spiritual Leader like Gandhi you can temporarily choose a religion if someone demand/requests it or to temporarily boosts relations for a bit to better be able to trade or bribe)
4) Again, play Normal Size/Normal Speed maps (no huts/events) with 6 AIs. Pangaea would be best for now and simplifies diplomacy.
5) Be cognizant of worst enemies but generally open borders with everyone first thing.
6) Trade or gift extra resource copies as soon as you can. (if Expansive I made trade single health resources for time as well if health is no concern)

Lastly, get the BUG mod if you don't have it.

Coupla observations from your previous post:

1) GK and Napster have fave civics (Rep and Police State) that are on the same tree. Therefore, could not be adopted simultaneously. In order to adopt them you would need the corresponding later game techs (Constitution or Fascism) or have built the Pyramids. But most importantly, you do not start earning positive diplo bonuses for fave civic unless that party also adopts the civic.

2) You mention something like " growth to culture priority". What do you mean by culture priority?

3) Worker first is almost always the correct move so that is definitely a good basic concept in your deck of cards. The other items mentioned mean little unless applied properly so just know a term doesn't mean the application is there...just sayin'
Priorities? Question is are the Priorities correctly placed?

 

[Lennier]

I’m not sure what’s going on with the OP’s settings. Default for huge map is 11 civs; he’s using 16. I play huge maps with low sea level with 12 civs. Civs usually have ~10-15 cities before the map fills up. 3-4 cities seems low even for high sea levels with 16 civs on a huge map.

 

[6K Man]

I’ll level with you – you’re playing the game wrong. There are a ton of red flags in your post. Specifically, why are you “playing peacekeeper”? Why only 3 cities? Why are you trying to “please everyone”? Why are you “leading in tech and gold” (and score, not that it matters) and not in a position to crush everyone who attacks you? And why do you think 5 Civs decided to be jerks for “no reason”?

Civ4 is, at its core, a wargame. The AIs are programmed – poorly – to challenge a weak human civilization. If you appear weak in units and have lots of big juicy cities, you’ll have a hard time keeping the AIs at peace. Even the best deity players can struggle with this.

You expand to win. Land is power, as someone here once said. If you don’t expand, you’re giving yourself a disadvantage, because the AIs never stop expanding until every last crappy site has a city on it. More cities means more production, more production is more units, you get the idea.

You can’t please everyone. If Justinian and Isabella have different religions, they’ll hate each other. And if you adopt one of their religions, the other one will hate you. If you adopt neither religion, they’ll both hate you a little less, but not enough to leave you alone. Warmongers will hate you for trading with Gandhi and Sitting Bull. You have to pick a side. Choose wisely. Find the outcast runt AI that nobody likes and go to war against them. Find the big religious bloc and join it.

Ignore the scoreboard. Ignore gold. Tech matters, but if you know Rifling, it won’t do you any good if you have 3 cities with 2 Rifles each and Monty shows up with a mixed stack of 50 Catapults, Macemen, and Crossbows. What matters is whether you have the units on hand (or the production capacity to build them fast) to defend the land you have.

Great players can win with one city on Deity but they know how to manipulate the AI through diplomacy after years of experience. I’m not a great player, so I have to win (on Emperor) by conquering enough land so that nobody can viably threaten me. I suggest you start by doing the same.

TL;DR: Accept that diplomacy is stacked against the human (it has to be that way, or humans would exploit the AI mercilessly) and utilize the diplomatic tricks that work. Gifting the AI stuff doesn’t help much unless it’s in response to a request, for example. Recognize that open borders (and trade) with your friends and closed borders (no trade) with your friend’s enemies provide a greater average benefit than either of open borders/trade with everyone or closed borders/no trade with everyone.

 

[Lexicus]

The same thing the OP is describing sometimes happens to me, where the AI suddenly piles up on me "out of nowhere" and several civs declare war all at once. It's always my fault when this happens. When I pay attention to diplomacy I can almost always keep from being attacked unexpectedly. It's when I...

conquer enough land so that nobody can viably threaten me.

...that I can stop paying attention to diplomacy completely, because even if I'm attacked unexpectedly it won't matter.

What basics exactly are you presuming I am ignorant of? Because it seems to me that you're conflating basics with intermediate nuances and from my perspective, that comes off as lightly condescending.

Hey friend, I used to lose (sometimes) on Noble too and taking the advice of some of these folks has put me up to playing pretty comfortably on Emperor (like 6k man). If you're losing on Noble you're likely not using what's available to you to best advantage.

For me I think my big problems were understanding early city placement and grasping the preciousness (and optimal uses) of early worker turns.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Civ4 learning curve is steep enough! That's why I hate how the slavery civic is implemented. Powerful, available early, and complicated; AKA bad game design. Keep the early game simple and leave the complicated things later on.