Vicious bastards...

alh_p

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 13, 2001
Messages
30
Location
Heart of darkness
After playing Civ for, well, too long to be healthy, I have discovered certain, shall we say, inconsitencies? in the AI attitude towards me. Does anyone else find that a certain M.Gandi doesn´t really fit the billing of a "peacefull" leader? Whenever the bastard can, he nukes or attacks me!

Dodgy AI?-or just my diplomats?

 
It's the game's fault. Forget their real-life equivalents. You should judge your opponents based on the following threat chart:

Genghis Kahn 6
Stalin 5
Alexander 5
Shaka 4
Napoleon 4
Elizabeth I 4
Caesar 3
Mao Tse Tung 2
Raamses 2
Frederick 2
Abe Lincoln 1
Montezuma 1
M. Gandhi 1
Hammurabi 0
(this is based on a chart from "Rome on 640K a Day", the official strategy guide. Only two columns from the complex chart have been copied here.)

The leaders with higher numbers are more of a threat, whereas the lower numbered ones are more harmless. This is sort of handy when knowing whom to ally with and whom to target, but it has more useful ramifications when you consider that only 1 civ of each colour can exist at a time. That is, if you find Gandhi early in the game and are tempted to kill him, don't. Instead, wear him down to one city and keep him alive to keep Kahn out of the game (they are both grey). Finish Gandhi off when he gets annoying, or after you think you have a large enough head-start on Kahn, whichever comes first. Or, if you wait long enough (specifically, till after the year zero) and kill Gandhi, Kahn will not appear at all.

This is also helpful when picking which civ YOU want to be, because it blocks civs of that colour from being in the game. Of course, being grey is always a good idea, because it keeps Kahn out and he is the best among the AI's, but if you sum the threat numbers from each colour pair you get:

Pink: 4 + 5 = 9
White: 5 + 3 = 8
Grey: 6 + 1 = 7
Blue: 4 + 2 = 6
Green: 4 + 0 = 4
Lt. Blue: 2 + 1 = 3
Yellow: 2 + 1 = 3

Making the pinks (Alexander and Elizabeth) the most dangerous pair. Therefore, to get the best odds for winning the game, you should always play the Greeks or English. If you are looking for a challenge, play the Americans, Chinese, Aztecs, or Egyptians (A.K.A, the loser civs... hehe).

In case anyone is wondering, the threat numbers are based on the leader's personality. That is, leaders which are more militaristic, more agressive, and more expansionistic get high threat numbers. Leaders which are friendly, perfectionist, and civilized are the least threatening (this sounds like Hammurabi..
smile.gif
)

Oh, and to answer your original question about Gandhi, I have to say that Gandhi is a threat # of 1, which is almost as low as you can get. He is nice... real nice. Of course, that doesn't make him totally harmless— this isn't the REAL Gandhi, remember. You must have really pissed him off. Another possibility is that he is a LOT stronger than you and you have refused to pay tribute, so he got impatient (they all do, regardless of whether they are Gandhi or not).

Now, as far as nuking, it's a different story. I'm not sure if he has the research to back it up, but one civ expert claimed that enemy civs would only attack you with nukes if someone else uses nukes first, except for the Americans and Russians, who are the only ones who will actually start a nuclear war. I can't be sure of this conclusion, but it makes sense. Personally, I have only been in one nuclear war which I did not start, and it was the Russians who started it.

I think it is a little bit of both... It is a flaw in the game about the Gandhi thing, because Gandhi really would not start a nuclear war under any circumstances, but you must also have made a diplomatic mistake, otherwise he would not be so mean to you.

One last note: if you get bored of the predictable leaders, just press alt+r during the game, and their personalities will change (as well as their threat #'s).

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Civilization I Master of masters
Webmaster of Civilization I Fanatics Center
 
Technically, yes. It is a cheat. It's function is a cheat, but it's purpose is not. If you do it right at the beginning of the game to make the game harder, then it's not really cheating, even though you are using a "cheat". If you were to use it to pacify a brutal opponent midgame, that would be cheating.

It's the same deal with the change-difficulty cheat. This cheat can be used to produce high scores by playing a game in Chieftan and then, 1 turn before the game is beaten, changing the difficulty to emperor to get a higher percentage, and it's almost undetectable by the cheat police. However, I use this very same cheat to play the game at 2 difficulty levels above emperor. I set it that way before the game starts. It's quite fun, and emperor was getting boring anyway.
smile.gif


So, all personal bragging anecdotes aside, cheats are fine if you use them to enhance the game and not to win easily. This alt + r cheat is not going to make the game easier. It's going to make it more unexpected and surprising.

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Civilization I Master of masters
Webmaster of Civilization I Fanatics Center
 
Yeah,generally, I do kill one civ straight away, to double my building potential... which i know might just, ever so slightly, piss everyone else off and make them hate me...

but, i generally find that they demend tribute when ´I´ am more powerful, which i see as, well, maybe a little foolish?

And about the ruskies, when I was aztecs once and ´had´ the americas, and they asia, europe&africa, we were roughly even, but with them having a bit of an advantage, and I COULD, NOT, incite them into a war (being a republic- it´s easier), whether this had anything to do with our space-race... I don´t know... anyway, I was quite surprised...
 
As far as trust and hatred goes, the enemy civs think short term and are very simplistic (In other words, they will not consider such abstract things as how good a start you got). They will forget repeated backtabbings if you give them enough time, will never consider the way which you have treated third parties when they are judging your character, and will never trust further than they can throw you.

When more powerful than you, enemy civs will always become hostile. The stronger, the more hostile. This is regardless of how you have treated them or how "nice" they are.

When about the same strength as you, enemy civs will always start out with threats. I found it is quite difficult to convince such civs into submission, as they are playing the same game, trying to get the edge on you. As long as neither of you backs down, the stalemate of threats can only continue or escalate into war. If you are trying to get peace, then you are in luck if your opponent is peaceful and will probably able to establish peace. If your opponent is particularily unfriendly (mongols, russians...), then you should prepare for war. War *will* occur, it's just a matter of when. Forget trying to threaten them; instead work for peace (hopelessly) while building your armies for war. Another thing to try is taking *something* from them. This can either have the effect of them noticing your power, which can convince them to give in to you, or make them hate you, depending on their temper and government type. A good pre-emptive strike also has the possibility of making them substantially weaker than you, essentially winning the war for you in advance, causing them to concede defeat and give in to your threats.

As for weaker civs, the best thing you can do is to simply absorb them. In fact, as my personal high score board can testify, rampant militarism is the most effective civ1 strategy. However, it is usually possible to coerce smaller civs. I found this is most useful during the early stages of the game. For example...

***
All of the civs are evenly matched, each with exactly 2 cities and armies which have no defensive capability. However, the game ranks each civ based on its power rating, and gives the ranking order to the AI's. Your civ has been ranked most powerful, and your nearest neighbour has been ranked least powerful, although the difference between your two civs is not noticable. Neither of you is properly defended against a simple attack, and yet neither has the military resources required to launch even a simple attack. In this case, you should threaten them. They think you are more powerful than you are, so take advantage of it. You will probably be able to enjoy generous donations from them for a long time. Be careful, however, because a slight shift in power followed by one of your routine threats could produce a dangerous enemy.
***

Power information can be determined in 3 main ways:
1. Cheat. The computer players all have constant and ready access to the power ratings of all civs, so there is *limited* justification in cheating to get this information. Press shift-56 (if you have version 1) and then f8 to get the powergraph showing who is more powerful and by how much. If you want to stay relatively honourable, immediately press shift-56 again upon exiting the powergraph to avoid seeing the map.
2. Wait for an historian to tell you. One of the things they report on is power. If you are lucky, they will tell you the order, showing how powerful you are with respect to your neighbours.
3. Count their advisors. This is the best method. When in a parlay with an enemy leader, the number of advisors standing behind the enemy leader will represent their power:
4 advisors: most powerful
3 advisors: moderately powerful
2 advisors: moderately weak
1 advisor: weakest

You should always pay attention to their number of advisors when parlaying, especially during the early parts of the game.

Now, you asked about inciting the russians to war... This is part of a larger problem in civ of causing wars while a democracy/republic. My favorite way to solve it, of course, is to have the pyramids built so you can easily switch to another government to initiate a conflict and then switch right back. Refusing to pay bribes also works, but only if the other civ is more powerful than you. My guess is that in your game you were actually much more powerful than you thought, and the Russians were intimidated by you.

A third strategy, and a useful one, is to make yourself weaker than your opponent. I know this sounds like suicide, but it actually works...
Firstly, establish a peace treaty. You must do this immediately before you continue the rest of the plan. With a fresh or renewed treaty on the table, your opponent will be unwilling to take advantage of your future temporary weakness.
Secondly, disband all unnecessary military units. That is, all except your main city defensive units, 1 or 2 basic transport ships, plus of course your settlers/diplomats/caravans. This has the immediate effect of dropping your power rating, which is what the enemy civs look at. The power rating is based on the combined attack, defense, and movement capabilities of all of your units. By disbanding all unnecessary or offensive units (and ALL nukes), you can greatly bring your power rating down, which makes your opponent want to prey on you.
Now that you have made yourself weak, you must increase your strength again, but this time in areas which are not measurable to your opponent. Build city walls in all major cities, even ones where you did not intend to build them. Cities walls triple defense in a city, making it virtually invincible to Armor attacks, and most other units which do not fire right through city walls. Also, concentrate on building up your cities. Give factories and similar buildings priority, perhaps even going so far as to research a few more techs quickly to get the technology for power plants or something. Second, focus on marketplaces and banks. The extra city walls cost a lot of money to maintain, and having cash around is handy for other purposes as well, like quickly replacing lost defensive units... and of course diplomats. Build a supply of diplomats, about a dozen or so. They are useful, and they have very low power ratings, so you appear weak if you have them.
In the next phase, you just wait. Wait for them to attack you. And I mean ACTUALLY attack you, not just approach you. Wait until they strike before rebuilding your military. In the meantime, continue to hone the areas emphasized in the last step, but add some longer term goals, like developing the technology to build SDI defenses, and better city improvements.
Once they attack, take advantage of all of the improvements you made, switching all your cities back to restoring your military. Launch an attack with all of your diplomats, sabotaging (free), and bribing offensive units. Remember that units that are further from home are cheaper. You may even want to buy a key city.

In the event that they do not attack within 5-10 turns, send a diplomat to them. Hopefully they will have some new threats you can turn down to catalyze the process. If they still won't go to war with you, then sit back and count your winnings, because they will probably NEVER attack you. You can either race them for the space ship (which you should be able to win easily, because you are more stronger, and they spend too much resources on military, whereas you spend almost none), or you can switch to a communist government, build a few nukes and waste them, because they won't be much of a challenge.

Oops... this post was way too long. I'm almost late for class.

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Civilization I Master of masters
Webmaster of Civilization I Fanatics Center
 
hey TTG, do you have the same thing except for the civ2 rulers? that little chart is about right. Hammurabi is always my ally in any game. i always found out that stalin is very very aggressive. in the beginning of the game, he goes on a killing spree (kill everyone in sight). im usually the own that starts a nuclear war.


 
I get these kinds of questions for a lot of things, but the truth is that everything I know about civ is based on civ1. I think I played civ2 once, and I didn't even finish that game. But I play civ1 all the time, and have been for years. I've read all of the online literature about the game, including dozens of independent and professional reviews, FAQs, strategy guides, and other stuff. Most of what is online I have written or compiled myself (it will all eventually appear on this site). Those threat values are directly from the official strategy guide, a 200+ page book that I *own*. To even begin to translate this knowledge base into civ2, to see what works and what doesn't, would be an impossible task. I cannot promise ANYTHING for civ2. If you see something in here and you want to know if it works in civ2, or if there is a similar way it works in civ2, you need to either test it yourself, or ask someone else. Sorry.

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Civilization I Master of masters
Webmaster of Civilization I Fanatics Center
 
Forget the real-life stuff indeed...forget them numbers and colors and stuff,too...

They're all pretty hostile to me.

And if not at the start,then surely as soon as they encounter me!

I use CivWin,so there might be some differences with the regular civ,but basically I guess it's still the same.

Any way,just remember this little hint :

My civ+fast advancement=good
My civ+other civ=war
My civ+victory over others=excellent
My civ+being beaten to pulp=more common
wink.gif


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Beer...the OTHER other white meat...not just for breakfast anymore !
 
My previous one may have made me look like a paranoid warmonger,but hey...

You'd be paranoid and at war with everyone else too,if everyone's against you...
wink.gif


Besides,the only sure way for your civ to rule is to wipe out any other civ,right...?

I mean,you wanna rule,or you wanna sit around a campfire singing "cumbaya" and drive a Volkswagen van ?

hehehehe...well...?

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Beer...the OTHER other white meat...not just for breakfast anymore !
 
The files are out... The summaries of a lot of the leader info I talked about here are not published to this website in a cool format for your convenience. Check it out:
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ1/cia/

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Civilization I Master of masters
Webmaster of Civilization I Fanatics Center
 
Those threat values are directly from the official strategy guide, a 200+ page book that I *own*.

Can you tell me the author / publisher / exact name of that book, or maybe its ISBN number? I'd like to order it from amazon or anywhere where I can find it... ;)

Thanx alot
 
The book is called "Civilization or Rome on 640K a day." I'm at school now. When I get home I'll get the other info on it for you. I do know that it is out of print, so you may have a hard time finding it.

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Civilization I Master of masters
Webmaster of Civilization I Fanatics Center
 
HAHA YEAH RIGHT. It's out of print, you know... I wouldn't sell it for $50.
tongue.gif


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Civilization I Master of masters
Webmaster of Civilization I Fanatics Center
 
I hope that we can get it somewhere in *.txt format...
scan.gif
I will scan the whole net.
btw, this forum has the coolest smileys ever!

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The great leader of the barbaric skull collectors.
 
It's a copyrighted book, so you won't ever find it on this website.

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Civilization I Master of masters
Webmaster of Civilization I Fanatics Center
 
1). I said "scan the net" not "this website". <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/tongue.gif" border=0>
2). You are so obsessed with that "copyright" stuff. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/wink.gif" border=0>

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The great leader of the barbaric skull collectors.

[This message has been edited by skullers (edited April 30, 2001).]
 
Is there a way to really be "allies" with anyone? What I mean is that even if you make peace with some civ, the only thing that "peace" is useful for is that they don't attack you. That's it. It's nearly impossible to ask them for money or make them attack any other civ. (we have a military proposal for you) I once paid them nearly all of my money, and all they did was kill 2-3 Units. After a few turns they make peace with each other (and maybe both start attacking you). Asking them for money may work once - but they won't give you much. Even if they are much weaker than you and you can kill them in about 2 turns, they still say "we ignore your hollow treats". Of course the thing about making them attack the other civs maybe didn't work because of that UN wonder that I've build... But still it's almost useless trying to make them do something for you. (and I ALWAYS play on the easiest difficulty) I usually simply destroy any civilization that I meet (Mongols or Indians - doesn't matter). Does anyone have any better ideas? <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/confused.gif" border=0>

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The great leader of the barbaric skull collectors.

[This message has been edited by skullers (edited May 01, 2001).]
 
You can forget military alliances-- they never really work. So don't waste your money trying to bribe them to attack. Once or twice (in all the years of playing civ), a computer civ has offered ME money to attack someone. Of course, I took it.

Now when it comes to coercing them, the important aspect is their aggressiveness; militarism and expansionism are irrelevant.

The civs which are "friendly" are likely to give you money in most situations where you are stronger than them, especially if you have the power handy to wipe them out. It is with these civs that you can try "torturing". Torturing is where if you destroy a civ that is far more advanced than you, you keep their last city alive but don't let them keep a military. Eventually they will offer you ALL of their techs and gold in exchange for peace and you can kill them. Otherwise, when you take their last city you will only get ONE tech. Note this doesn't really work with normal or agressive civs.

The normal civs will give you money if you are more powerful in most ways (including military) and have an army capable of destroying them soon. Basically, if it's obvious you could kill them anyway, then they will give you the money.

Now the aggressive civs cannot really be threatened successfully at all. Although, if you are locked in a peace treaty you don't want to be in, threatening them is a good way to get out of it. These are the civs that will threaten YOU all the time.

Here are the friendly civs:
Americans
Indians
Babylonians

The normal civs (with respect to aggression):
Chinese
Greeks
English
Romans
Aztecs
Egyptians

The agressive civs:
Russians
Germans
French
Mongols
Zulus

Now go and make world peace by killing all of these fools.

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Civilization I Master of masters
Webmaster of Civilization I Fanatics Center
 
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