[GS] Victoria: Delay RNDY or Prior RNDY

[Lily_Lancer]

There're two ways of playing Victoria.

1: Prior RNDY and Build RNDY in every city, use free inquiry to pump up science, this is a traditional way for Harbor-based Civs. And this way can also be better done by Indonesia and Maori.

2: Delay RNDY for the free unit. We can basically get a lot of free frigates if we delay the construction of those RNDYs to Square Rigging. We can get those frigates even before we research nitre, giving us a severe advantage since it takes a long time to collect nitre for Frigates but if you build RNDY instead then the nitres are free. In the first path you need money and science(to research nitre) to upgrade Frigates however under the second path you no longer need them since they're all for free.

The second path seems more interesting however the negative effects are also severe that you cannot make full use of free inquiry. Is there any Victoria players giving any advice on the 2nd path?

 

[Victoria]

Delay RNDY for the free unit.

Hence why I told you I build Campus first but you said always RNDY... look your advice is great but just be careful about what you rubbish before you play with something enough.

 

[Pietato]

Hence why I told you I build Campus first but you said always RNDY... look your advice is great but just be careful about what you rubbish before you play with something enough.

Well, he is (slowly) learning.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Hence why I told you I build Campus first but you said always RNDY... look your advice is great but just be careful about what you rubbish before you play with something enough.

When did you say that?

Won't those coastal +0(unless there is reef) campuses delay your timing to Square Rigging?

How many RNDYs do you build before Square Rigging? Do you still choose Free Inquiry?

 

[Victoria]

When did you say that?

Do Harbors strictly dominate Commerical Hubs now?

near the end of that thread I say the below

To be honest though, Vicky has been like this since she got the free stuff and that’s what I would like to see removed, she is too easy. Never asked for free stuff, just a historical Vicky.

But when they first implemented the free stuff I did surmise that the free units were too strong. I get tired of looking for threads but I am sure @acluewithout would remember the conversation

To answer your other stuff

How many RNDYs do you build before Square Rigging?

2 is enough gold to help. Sometimes none if starting inland and need the +4 for a medieval golden.

Do you still choose Free Inquiry?

Not for classical not typically. It depends. Victoria does not always start by the sea! in fact quite often I find she does not. If you are attacks by barbs or another civ it can be hard to get a classical golden age. First galley is +3 points... etc but Kupe has a very easy golden age, Victoria is the opposite many times.

Won't those coastal +0(unless there is reef) campuses delay your timing to Square Rigging?

It is much more complex than this. For example rushing to redcoats early and then settling continents is very strong.
Getting frigates is great but I tend to have 2 quads that have been built with at least lighthouses so they get 25% XP and use the other RNDY's to make them fleets and armadas.

I am not a stupid player. Not as clever as you but I do play Victoria a lot and it is not just about fast, it is about variety and fun. Your golden age strategy just does not work with Victoria often. I have written threads on it. But when I hear you claim ths and that about Victoria and I know it is not the whole picture I realise just how biased your civ rankings are. You are a bit of a jekyl and Hyde. All scientific and then exaggeration

 

[Lily_Lancer]

It is much more complex than this. For example rushing to redcoats early and then settling continents is very strong.
Getting frigates is great but I tend to have 2 quads that have been built with at least lighthouses so they get 25% XP and use the other RNDY's to make them fleets and armadas.

You only get one redcoat per continent, isn't it?

You get +3 from the first boat, +4 from UB, +3 from high adj, so your first RNDY yields 10 golden age points and it seems not that difficult to get some other points for a classical golden age, isn't it?

Yes if you start inland you definitely want to delay those RNDYs.

What I'm really consider important is that the free frigate from RNDY needs no nitre. So you don't even have to research nitre, which saves you lots of science, you also don't need to wait for nitre to grow 2 per turn and slowly upgrade.

 

[Victoria]

You get +3 from the first boat, +4 from UB, +3 from high adj, so your first RNDY yields 10 golden age points and it seems not that difficult to get some other points for a classical golden age, isn't it?

Our conversation is deemed to be on deity and on continents because that is what you play and also what I play. that is my understanding. If you start isolated like Kupe does you can get your golden age points. You have 10 and now need to find the rest and normally that is OK. But not isolated you get attacked and do really do need archery in there. you can get away with just warriors sometimes but you know these civs and barbs use ranged now and it gets difficult.

What I'm really consider important is that the free frigate from RNDY needs no nitre

Many civs do not put their cities by the sea on continents and while rushing frigates gets you so far they can just end up floating around costing maintenance and that is not cheap.You really need some land troops as well. yes no nitre helps with the frigates and on an island map you will own taking the RNDY first. Especially as you just take out all the CS as they all build a harbour and you are sinking in gold and can do whatever you like. We play continents and that is harder to deal with. That is the way I like it.

There is various things you can do but I find if you want some guarantee to your Victoria play you aim for a medieval golden that moves into renaissance and beyond if need be but you know conquering can be fast, especially when you get very strong troops. I have found that even with the classical dockyards when they run, you do not get enough science to be beating the opposition at this stage and so it just seems to work better planning for a later game but allowing yourself archery does give you the chance to build a larger number of coastal cities early. Also monumentaility is helpful if you get a classical, purely for the speed of a builder at sea scouting, it becomes like a Kupe builder but limited to the coast.

Yes 1 redcoat per continent, but you do not need many because when you push for them they are very strong and hard building them is not that expensive, it is not like you need 5 of them, 3 is plenty for one attack force.

Once you have harbours as Victoria and are spamming them then GA's are powerful era points as well as the other benefits. The power of Hic Sunt Dracones is also quite strong for Victoria and a fun option to take.

You really have to play Victoria a variety of ways to get the right feel for her but I feel it is starting with a firm base and then taking RNDY. The only time I try the opposite nowadays is when I start on a continent border. regardless of anything else she is a domination girl and does well after some warming up.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Our conversation is deemed to be on deity and on continents because that is what you play and also what I play. that is my understanding. If you start isolated like Kupe does you can get your golden age points. You have 10 and now need to find the rest and normally that is OK. But not isolated you get attacked and do really do need archery in there. you can get away with just warriors sometimes but you know these civs and barbs use ranged now and it gets difficult.

Many civs do not put their cities by the sea on continents and while rushing frigates gets you so far they can just end up floating around costing maintenance and that is not cheap.You really need some land troops as well. yes no nitre helps with the frigates and on an island map you will own taking the RNDY first. Especially as you just take out all the CS as they all build a harbour and you are sinking in gold and can do whatever you like. We play continents and that is harder to deal with. That is the way I like it.

There is various things you can do but I find if you want some guarantee to your Victoria play you aim for a medieval golden that moves into renaissance and beyond if need be but you know conquering can be fast, especially when you get very strong troops. I have found that even with the classical dockyards when they run, you do not get enough science to be beating the opposition at this stage and so it just seems to work better planning for a later game but allowing yourself archery does give you the chance to build a larger number of coastal cities early. Also monumentaility is helpful if you get a classical, purely for the speed of a builder at sea scouting, it becomes like a Kupe builder but limited to the coast.

Yes 1 redcoat per continent, but you do not need many because when you push for them they are very strong and hard building them is not that expensive, it is not like you need 5 of them, 3 is plenty for one attack force.

Once you have harbours as Victoria and are spamming them then GA's are powerful era points as well as the other benefits. The power of Hic Sunt Dracones is also quite strong for Victoria and a fun option to take.

You really have to play Victoria a variety of ways to get the right feel for her but I feel it is starting with a firm base and then taking RNDY. The only time I try the opposite nowadays is when I start on a continent border. regardless of anything else she is a domination girl and does well after some warming up.

The key for frigate rush is that there exist at least one coastal guy apart from you on Continents Map, wherever the coastal guy is, we can take him down by frigates.

I still think Free Inquiry yields too much. The classical free inquiry works well for Indonesia, Phoecia and Maori, so it should work with Victoria. By using Free Inquiry you shall beeline Naval tradition, also you shall only use hammers to produce Harbors then settlers. The key is don't build but buy lighthouses or traders with gold. Since you have little production bonus on building them.

Can't believe that you take monumentality even when you have RNDY but not much faith.

 

[Victoria]

Can't believe that you take monumentality even when you have RNDY but not much faith.

Gold is discounted to for buying builders and settlers. But I guess we are only England so are poor. I am not going to fight with someone talking theory any more. Just play her a few ways first eh?
And remember many here play deity and it is not always that easy to do what you want.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

And remember many here play deity .

However the fact is that many people have a look at my Hungary map but nobody really tries. (to show the power of it)

 

[Victoria]

However the fact is that many people have a look at my Hungary map but nobody really tries. (to show the power of it)

The rankings are personal based on difficulty and map and also how people play. Hungary is not that powerful on deity but it is not all about levy, they get some great build bonuses your map is not allowing the exploit of . I agree it is not as powerful as some say, not compared to say aztec.

 

[Civ Chemist]

You get +3 from the first boat, +4 from UB, +3 from high adj, so your first RNDY yields 10 golden age points

Unique districts don't get additional era score for high adjacency, so it's only 7 era score.

 

[Pietato]

The rankings are personal based on difficulty and map and also how people play. Hungary is not that powerful on deity but it is not all about levy, they get some great build bonuses your map is not allowing the exploit of . I agree it is not as powerful as some say, not compared to say aztec.

Hungary is the best dom civ on deity because of the walls and the sheer number of troops city-states produce. They start slower than other top dom civs, though.

As for lily's map...no one wants to play a horrible online speed floodplain start game.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

they get some great build bonuses your map is not allowing the exploit of ..

I guess my map there's a giant river and therefore most of your cities can benefit from "Pearl of Danube", at least in my game.

However I guess the reason is that "Pearl of Danube" is not very powerful as someone who never played might think though.

 

[acluewithout]

Do Harbors strictly dominate Commerical Hubs now?

near the end of that thread I say the below

But when they first implemented the free stuff I did surmise that the free units were too strong. I get tired of looking for threads but I am sure @acluewithout would remember the conversation

To answer your other stuff

2 is enough gold to help. Sometimes none if starting inland and need the +4 for a medieval golden.

Not for classical not typically. It depends. Victoria does not always start by the sea! in fact quite often I find she does not. If you are attacks by barbs or another civ it can be hard to get a classical golden age. First galley is +3 points... etc but Kupe has a very easy golden age, Victoria is the opposite many times.


It is much more complex than this. For example rushing to redcoats early and then settling continents is very strong.
Getting frigates is great but I tend to have 2 quads that have been built with at least lighthouses so they get 25% XP and use the other RNDY's to make them fleets and armadas.

I am not a stupid player. Not as clever as you but I do play Victoria a lot and it is not just about fast, it is about variety and fun. Your golden age strategy just does not work with Victoria often. I have written threads on it. But when I hear you claim ths and that about Victoria and I know it is not the whole picture I realise just how biased your civ rankings are. You are a bit of a jekyl and Hyde. All scientific and then exaggeration

I’ve posted elsewhere that I think Harbours are positioned in the Tech Tree is such a way that you can either rush them for the early game, or delay and get them later. There’s lots of mechanics that support that, eg Coastal Cities being able to build boats without Harbours giving you an early “pseudo” Harbour; the Harbour Production Card coming later; but at the same time, Harbours and their Eurekas are very rush-able.

Personally, I find it more fun getting RNDs later, because yes free Frigates (so stupid they need Niter), I’m finding it hard to get classical golden ages (I expand so quickly there’s no flipping room for barbs to spawn), and just general pacing of the game.

@Victoria I’ll hunt around for the thread(s) you mentioned; but your recollection is the same as mine.

(Side note: I feel I rarely get any value from the free melee unit. Getting one per continent is just silly. If I have a continent spilt, I get an extra warrior or swordsman which is nice, but hardly relevant. If I settle late game, I already have a Military. I’ve yet to get a free Red Coat that way because timing, but one seems daft as well. Red Coats, however, are always good. Magic number is maybe three. Two on a budget. You just buy them with gold. Better if you have horsies you can rush upgrade to Cavalry as well. Red Coats and Cav. Lovely. Although that’s quite a lot of gold.

Overall, I feel like Pax B is still a bit of a hot mess. Free Naval Units is powerful, but odd when you can capture units with Sea Dogs (and Sea Dogs aren’t otherwise special). Free Melee unit is still okay, but one per continent really is daft. I’d be happy to just lose that altogether. Free Trade Route is very nice. Whatever. England doesn’t suck, and if FXS fiddle with them again, they may well just screw them up again.

Anyway. All stuff I’ve said before. Side note over.)

England has a lot of nuance. I play them almost exclusively, and still find new things to do. I suspect all the Civs except maybe the total early warmongers have quite some nuance. The game really does have a lot of depth mechanically.

 

[Victoria]

@Victoria I’ll hunt around for the thread(s) you mentioned; but your recollection is the same as mine.

It’s Ok. I ran some tests last nights night. Just does not work on deity for vic.

 

[acluewithout]

Putting it here because I have no where else to put it. But I really miss science and culture from Harbour and Encampment specialists.

It was a nice nod to science and navy, and culture and military, being sort of linked historically, and the extra science and culture was situationally useful. Now, you really need to nail that classical or medieval golden age to get some of that flavour.

It’s really quite hard getting those classical and medieval golden ages. It’s not like England is particularly good at early exploring either.

 

[Victoria]

It’s really quite hard getting those classical and medieval golden ages.

The thing is, if you can get your campus going you can squeeze out a medieval on deity. You have to be a bit frugal but it’s not so hard now the CS are not investing so heavily on envoys early. Amani is always an option for me if I need a top up.
Norway is a better bet at deity but even then so much is dependent on what is happening around you.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

The thing is, if you can get your campus going you can squeeze out a medieval on deity. You have to be a bit frugal but it’s not so hard now the CS are not investing so heavily on envoys early. Amani is always an option for me if I need a top up.
Norway is a better bet at deity but even then so much is dependent on what is happening around you.

I tried 2 random starts on online Deity.
The first one fails to get to golden classical, however the 2nd one is a success. Yes since England doesn't have Bireme it is more difficult to get to golden classical. If you meet enough CSs the key is to let Amani go around and each CS will yield you 2 golden age points.

I'll try more games.

Generally you need:
1: Settle Cities. In ancient you'll(at least for me) settle 3 or 4 cities. If you don't settle beside wonder or on another continent to gain +3, at least you can settle on desert/tundra/volcanoe/river to gain +1. So this sums up to +3~+4.

(Yes I start with double settlers)

2: +7 from RNDY

3: +3 from destroying a barb camp (need chance)

4: +1~3 from meeting Civs

5: +2~4 from Suzerain CSs with Amani moving around

6: If you have spot for +3 campus, build one for +3.

7: +1 from Drama & Poetry , or +3 from Political Philosophy (really need a sense of your speed of research)

8:+1 from Celestral Navigation

On online Deity you need 19, if you fulfill all of above you'll get 28, so you can miss 2 or 3 on normal situations.

If you meet a wonder and settle besides it then you almost guaranteened a Golden Classical.

Yes the threshold is tight but not an unreachable target.

 

[Victoria]

(Yes I start with double settlers

What does this mean? You cheat?

the key is to let Amani go around and each CS will yield you 2 golden age points.

Which I have mentioned in governor posts before But getting fist envoy in enough CS's is not easy.

If you have spot for +3 campus, build one for +3.

So you have time to research both writing and celestial navigation before T40? Are you only playing maps with science CS's you get first envoy in ?

Yes the threshold is tight but not an unreachable target.

So risky eh? without double settlers, magical science and good CS it is still risky. And if it fails you have no science and swords bearing down on you... and you still have no archers! No, lily... it is not a sound strategy. And I cannot make sense of how you got so much in 40 turns of normal speed. The math just does not work unless you started with like +9 production in your cap, 2 science tiles to work and 2 early CS's
In 4 of my tests I settled wonders which is +6 but still failed because of no CS, no barbs etc etc
Settling another continent for +3 is incredibly rare. very very rare because you have to be the first to get it.
And on Deity your RNDY is 6 not 7 because you are not the first boat in the water. I mean is this really something you have tried or are just pretending to?

Anyone else wanting to validate how easy it is to get a golden classical age as Victoria on deity while beelining RNDY.