Victory

[Chandrasekhar]

I'm just worried that the AI just won't go after this victory type. We really need a victory that the AI will go after here. Any other proposals, just off the top of your head?

I like the idea of needing two from each "category." Of course, that might end up being too small. Anyway, we'd probably have to make sure that there are wonders that give mana for all types, not just elementals.

 

[evanb]

Another idea I just had:

How about requiring 14 different buildings to be built around the empire that stand for the 14 spell spheres. However, if you had control of a particular type of mana, you wouldn't need to build the building that accompanied it? Only after meeting this condition would you be able to build the tower of mastery. Does this make sense to you?

It makes sense to me because it sounds equivalent to building the parts of the Spaceship. IIRC, the Spaceship has 13 parts.

I know the Tower of Mastery is probably already implemented, as Chalid said earlier, but here's my idea anyhow: Let's call those 'parts' Life Nexus, Entropy Nexus etc. They have to be built regardless if the player has access to the respective mana type. They can be built without access to the correspondent mana type (flavour: the experienced wizards --just a figure of speech, I'm not referring to any units-- that build these structures are powerful enough to channel the forces of the spell spheres on their own, but only for this project). Then there could be some limitations as to what Nexus can be built where, i.e. Water and Fire Nexus not in the same city (but this might not be a good idea for smaller empires). When they're all constructed the player wins. Of course, all the Nexuses would become availabe by means of researching an appropriate technology.

What do you think?

 

[Chalid]

It seems you guys play with different Map generators than you do.

Just two examples from my last two games (both Monarch).
First game: Small Fractal. I had 40% of the land area and had all 14 kinds of mana.
The game after that: Standard Fractal. I was the last in Points, had a very small continent on my own and 9 of 14 manas without attacking one of the enemies (the eternal flame helped there as i could trade those three excess manas for other mana types).

Everything below 14 Manas is just to easy to reach if you only try a bit for getting those manas. I ended up with all manas in each of my games before i would have archived another victory condition. Maybe that is because i am always triing to get as many of them as possible, but thats actually what that victory is for.

To only thing that is needed (and we are searching for a good solution here) is that you can replace Mana nodes you have twice.

 

[eerr]

I think diffrent amounts of mana spawn on diffrent map types...
you would need to make the amount of mana consistent for each map size at the very least before you implement it.
how many nodes was that on a single map???

you also shouldn't "Require" all the mana because it should be achieveable by everyone (with a decent tech and production) like with the space race victory

and there should also be a wonder to generate air mana, because you can already generate fire water and earth, as well as the pair of life and death

also, the ai may not let you get so much mana "next time" if it values mana highly for the final victory

 

[Chalid]

Air Mana is not in yet...

The Victory is not meant to be archivable by everyone. This is simply not the Vanilla Spaceship.
It is a Victory that you either have to specifically go for (wonders, trade relations), or that you can go after if you have conquered a lot but do not want to mop up the Rest.

There is also no intetion to make it equal for all maps. Why should it be? Conquest is easier on an Pangea Map, Domination easier on a Small Map, Cultural easier on a Map with much Green land and Tower Victory easier on a big Map.

 

[eerr]

so theres no peaceful production/science victory type...?
only cultural (mostly commerce/religion based in the end game)
or conquest(production, WAR!)
or tower victory(strategy, land control, diplomacy,wonder production, probably some WAR!)
science only has the lame score victory type, and maybe one tech in the end for a tower victory that would be extremely easy to get?

 

[Kael]

so theres no peaceful production/science victory type...?
only cultural (mostly commerce/religion based in the end game)
or conquest(production, WAR!)
or tower victory(strategy, land control, diplomacy,wonder production, probably some WAR!)
science only has the lame score victory type, and maybe one tech in the end for a tower victory that would be extremely easy to get?

In this phase you are probably right. We are looking at alternate victory conditions during "Fire" and "Shadow" phases. "Fire" based around the armageddon spells and a possible good or evil win condition and in "Shadow" in regards to a grand quest victory condition.

 

[Maniac]

I use SmartMap, and I've never had 14 mana nodes on a map either (I use standard size). I always thought that was how it was supposed to be, that they are rare and thus very valuable. (Just like Incense and Reagents - those are also rare for me - is that too not supposed to be the case? )

Anyway just saying that in order to have a victory type that isn't just yet another way of conquest, I too think it would be better if you could build expensive projects, Nexuses that stand for each of the mana type. If you have one of the mana types, production speed of the project could be doubled.

 

[Nimbus]

I also use smart map, in the game I am playing now, Elohim, a huge map in the year 300 I have access to 4 fire mana , 2 spirit, 1 dimension, 1 earth, 1 law, 1 life, 1 nature and 1 water and that is without it being a big goal of mine. I am a little concerned that on the larger maps just getting one of all 14 might make for an easier win condition.

 

[Starship]

On the topic of victory....

Is it planned that the religions, individually, will have victories associated with them.

It would be great if the OO could win by drowning the world, and calling up the great Cthulu. (HP Lovecraft is my all time favorite horror author btw.)

Insert ideas for other religions.

It would actually be cool if you had some basic generic victory conditions..., but that each faction/religion had their own way to win as well.

I'll try to come up with some ideas.

The more I think about it I love the idea of a magic victory throught the Tower of Mastery.

(There goes my lunch break! Damn I wish I could get paid to read these forums, learn to mod, and play Civ.)

 

[Maniac]

I also use smart map, in the game I am playing now, Elohim, a huge map in the year 300 I have access to 4 fire mana , 2 spirit, 1 dimension, 1 earth, 1 law, 1 life, 1 nature and 1 water and that is without it being a big goal of mine. I am a little concerned that on the larger maps just getting one of all 14 might make for an easier win condition.

I guess map size is main determinant then. Seems like the current plan for the mana victory will only be for people with fast computers then.

 

[Chalid]

Yes Maniac. Easy to archive on large and above. with little difficulty on normal and hard on small and tiny.

 

[Maniac]

But how about adding a builder victory then as suggested in this thread? Build a Nexus of each mana type. The Tower of Mastery doesn't change the issues addressed in the first post of this thread.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

If the AI can reliably go for this victory, then I'm all for it. I guess it just seems to me that the AI would have a tough time actually getting all of these mana nodes. Is there anything wrong with having some massively expensive placeholder buildings for the mana? I'm not asking for a Civ IV Space Race here, but there should be some sort of builder/tech victory...

 

[Kael]

If the AI can reliably go for this victory, then I'm all for it. I guess it just seems to me that the AI would have a tough time actually getting all of these mana nodes.

If we playtest this, and we like it, then we will have to teach the AI how to do it well. Messing with the AI is always hard, but if its worth it then we will do it.

Is there anything wrong with having some massively expensive placeholder buildings for the mana? I'm not asking for a Civ IV Space Race here, but there should be some sort of builder/tech victory...

My problem with most builder submissions is they are renamed versions of the space race victory. I wanted to have more original victory conditions in FfH.

 

[Maniac]

My problem with most builder submissions is they are renamed versions of the space race victory. I wanted to have more original victory conditions in FfH.

If its fits with the theme, who cares whether unmodded Civ4 already has something similar or not?

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I don't think the AI needs to be proficient with every victory condition, since if they win another way, well, they still win, regardless of which V.C. you were going for.
Consider adding a long-time time victory that is only availible to the computer, i.e., if you don't win in 1000 turns you lose. Scale with difficulty, map size, and game speed, of course.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I don't think the AI has to be proficient with all victory conditions either. Heck, in vanilla Civ IV, they really only had a chance at Space Race and Time, with maybe Diplomacy in there too if they were lucky. The problem here is that there isn't a single victory condition that the AI goes after.

This Tower of Mastery thing looks promising... though I must admit I still like the idea of placeholder buildings so that small empires have a chance too. I envision it as the Tower of Mastery itself costing only a tiny bit in hammers (though it would be up there in tech), while each of the placeholder buildings costs something akin to the Apollo Program. It would make it so that having the vast majority of the mana types would be as good as a guarantee, but you wouldn't have to be dominating the world to have a chance at it.

I guess my biggest problem with this mod is that the only way you can lose (speaking loosely, of course) is by getting wiped out early by the barbs or late by some seriously perturbed AIs. I suspect that AI victories will be implemented in time, but the sooner it is, the better.

On a separate note, have you considered a pure tech victory? You must admit, there is no parellel in Civ IV, and it could be interesting. I've had some ideas about it, maybe I'll type it up eventually.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Hmmm, i doubt you want a flood of victoy conditions, but I'll give you the ideas I get anyway
It'd be an interesting game if your goal was to wipe out one particular civ chosen at the outset. You'd win if you or anyone took them out of the game. But you'd have to do it before anyone else was taken out as well, or else another civ would have won first--so if you couldn't take out your enemy first, you'd have to prevent any other underdogs from getting offed first.
To make it interesting, if someone gets taken out before turn, say, 150 then their hunter would get a new target.

 

[Zurai]

I'll be the devil's advocate here: I DO think the AI should be proficient at all victory conditions. Not neccesarily all in the same game, or even all in the same AI personality, but to have a victory that only the human player can achieve is nothing more than a cheat. Both the human player and the AI should be playing exactly the same game. If one side can do things that the other cannot under any realistic circumstances do, they're playing different games - and what's the point in that?

Not to mention it's not a builder wonder at all. I just played another 6 player huge pangaea game as Luichurp, wound up with almost a quarter of the continent after conquering another civ, and still wouldn't have been able to win this victory condition due to plain lack of available mana. I would have had to conquer another civ (probably the other dwarf race since they had the most mana resources) and re-task their mana resources in order to win via Mastery, and at that point I actually think I would have won by Domination.

EDIT: I just checked that game, and there were exactly 13 mana nodes on an entire Huge Pangaea map. There was no way to get all 14 spheres without conquering at least some of the other civs for their mana; that makes it another kind of conquest victory, not a builder victory.