Vietnow

[Jawz II]

If you're gonna denounce and discredit every site I put up then why create this thread to begin with?

Here is an insane idea.....

Why don't you post a site that supports your theory that 90% of combat soldiers in Vietnam were draftees?

Otherwise I'm done with this stupid argument.



Good, so you agreee that 70% joined the military and where not drafted?

gee weez, you can only read one line out of each post? are you playing dumb or is that like a medical condition youre suffering from? :shakehead

thats what i get for thinking ill learn something intresting here, i shouldve known better, this is like the DU thread all over again...

 

[Bugfatty300]

Although we must be faced with the moral duty of abhorring the war, the Vietnam of today is a progressive, slowly democratizing nation. In retrospect, the triumph of the north, despite the cost of millions of lives, and despite decades of adjustment, has at least brought progressive, industrializing forces into what was by all means a degenerative colonial society(see below).

That said, I don't think it's possible that the south could have mustered the élan to rethink it's governmental structure, much less it's petty dealings with foreign overlords. If anything, a victory for the south would have meant a renewed reign for the leading political elite, and a breath of life into a reactionary christian minority - and this was a government that was despotic, had fixed elections to stay in power, etc..

I agree, that the ROV was far from the poster child of democracy in SEA. But the DRV still wasn't any better. Nor where the North Vietnamese the poster childs of true communism.

I find it hard to believe that the South Vietnamese would not reform at all if they had saved the ROV. Look at South Korea for instance.

 

[Bizon77]

gee weez, you can only read one line out of each post? are you playing dumb or is that like a medical condition youre suffering from? :shakehead

thats what i get for thinking ill learn something intresting here, i shouldve known better, this is like the DU thread all over again...

Wow. Are you for real?

lets get this straight. You make this thread for people to post links about the war.

Then You make a comment and say that the site Bugfatty posted is BS and said something about 90% of US combat soldiers where drafted

Then Bugfatty totaly nails you for it. And you respond with this flaming statment?

 

[Bugfatty300]

US 1965 - 1973 Draft Facts

- nearly 2,000,000 million males were drafted into the US military in the 8 years of the draft.

- Only 35% of those 2 million draftees were sent to Vietnam.

- Only 30% of US Vietnam War veterans were drafted. In WWII 60% of US veterans were drafted.

- 93% of US Army soldiers were drafted in WWII.

- 17,725 drafted Americans died in combat out of 47,000. The majority of whom where volunteers.

http://www.useless-knowledge.com/articles/apr/sept113.html

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0LIY/is_7_90/ai_98829319

This is another good site about the US military draft.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/honor/

This site is about the Return With Honor documentry which describes the lives of U.S. POWs in Vietnam.

 

[sabo]

psssst... "Hey Bugfatty, he's just a troller"

 

[Bugfatty300]

psssst... "Hey Bugfatty, he's just a troller"

I know. He's on my ignore list now. Though I should have done that along time ago.

Just wanted to clear the US draft stuff up once and for all. Alot of people still think that the US in Vietnam was a draftee's war.

I got alot of PM heat when I posted "Was Vietnam Misunderstood" thread so I don't expect to be popular when I present this stuff. But I also got some good compliments. And by the way, I appreciate the thanks.

 

[Marla_Singer]

The big problem about the Vietnam war is that it's been built on a misunderstanding. The Vietnamese were seeing it as a war of independence, the Americans were seeing it as a war against the commies. Even today Vietnamese people are linking the war of independence against the French with the war against the Americans.

Anyway, it's hard for us today to get how Vietnamese could consider South Vietnam as a semi-colony when the influence of the USSR and China was so strong in North Vietnam, but we have to think in the 60's way to really understand it.

 

[cidknee]

..........

 

[cidknee]

well if I can voice my opinion in this. I have met alot of Vietnam vets, and well most of them have seen combat. And yes most of them were volunteers, a big reason for this is that alot of the units that were in combat in Vietnam on a more " regualr" basis were in the North, and were mainly marines. There are no draftees in the marines. Same with the Air Cav, according to my research most of the 1st Cav were NOT draftees. Im not sure about other units like the 82nd airborne or the 101st but I know for a fact if u were a marine or a ranger, u were a volunteer; NOT a draftee. The units that were made up of draftee units were usually in the south. Alot less action there.
IIRC Oliver Norths marine unit " Blues Bastards" was one of such units.

But basically put, more marines saw combat than regular army. And by Combat i mean more than small firefights and quick ambushes. These would certinally cause a few deaths, but not as much as the NVA in the north with sustained tanks and battles...but, I could be wrong.

 

[Jawz II]

Wow. Are you for real?

lets get this straight. You make this thread for people to post links about the war.

Then You make a comment and say that the site Bugfatty posted is BS and said something about 90% of US combat soldiers where drafted

Then Bugfatty totaly nails you for it. And you respond with this flaming statment?

arent you clever, wow!

i clearly asked for history, troop movements, battles and outcomes, strategies or any other historical facts you can come up with, or even personal stories of people that were there

i didnt want politics, you can take that stuff to OT!

i mentioned 3 diffrent reasons why that site is full of it, you didnt see the other 2? wow!

also i said the real number is more like 90%, if you want the real number of "volunteers" go compare the number of people who volunteered after the draft was removed and comapre them to the number of people who volunteered before!

if you volunteer cause you know youll be drafted soon anyway, then youre not realy volunteering anything are you?

as for my "flaming statement" i really didnt want to type this out for the 3rd time, but obviously you missed it the other 2 times, WOW!

 

[Dreadnought]

if you volunteer cause you know youll be drafted soon anyway, then youre not realy volunteering anything are you?

Good point!

 

[covok48]

"i didnt want politics, you can take that stuff to OT!"


This entire thread belongs in OT period

 

[Bugfatty300]

Good point!

Nope, Joining the military in order to avoid the draft was a stupid concept that was largley encouraged by the US military who wanted volunteers.

Consider this:

Only around 2,000,000 males were drafted out of 30,000,000 males who were eligible for the draft.

Even of the 2,000,000 males drafted, only 35% were sent to Southeast Asia.

More likely than not, you would not have been drafted. And most likely you would not have been sent to Vietnam even if you were drafted.

 

[Jawz II]

bugfatty, i wish you wouldve put me on your ignore list much earlier too then maybe we couldve avoided politic in this thread.

the whole vietnam war is a very politically charged subject, but since this is the history forum i was hoping if i didnt mention the P-word, no one else would...

i couldve specifically asked everyone not to start with the politics, but who knows if that wouldve helped..

for everyones amusement, this is an email that went to the guy with that vietnam myths page (minus a few words):




i saw your page, if its supposed to kill myths, its doing a bad job of it, its nothing but a political document, mostly not even close to being "facts"

ill give you a few examples:


Myth: The Tet Offensive Was a Communist Victory.
"The 1968 Tet offensive was a total and complete miltary disaster for the North Vietnamese Communists no matter how you look at it. If you measure victory by territory gained or enemy killed, the North Vietnamese Army and the Viet Cong failed dismally in their attacks. "

if they measured victory by enemy killed or territory gained, they would´ve given up on day 1, packed their stuff and gone home

remember "you kill 1000 of us and we kill 1 of you and still we win"?
they made it to the lawn inside the US embassy, thats VCs on american soil..!

thats a clear message to all americans, you can pump all the money and manpower into vietnam forever, we will not give up!

and that message was recived.



Myth: Blacks Served In Disproportionate Numbers.

compare the procentage of the black soldiers to the whites, of course most officers were white back then.


Myth: Draft Dodgers Protested Against The War.

and its impossible to protest both?!


Myth: Drug Use Was Rampant In Vietnam.

so if it was rampant everywhere all the time, except during the time the soldiers spent in the field, it wasnt rampant?


Myth: Fraggings Were Common In Vietnam.

honest to god, how would you know? like drug use, its not something you would anounce to the world, is it?


Myth: Prisoners Were Hurled From Helicopters.

again, who knows? i know this: you dont know!


Myth: Body Counts Were Falsified

ive read an article by an american sniper, he said numbers everywhere were being "salted", it would make the brass happy, and it didnt hurt anybody, so why not?

and again its "who knows? not you!" but the soldiers had a reason to inflate the numbers

 

[cidknee]

I agree Jaws, most things ppl think that happened in Vietnam, probally didnt. At least not to effect that people seem to think. And well I can blame this on 1 thing, mor eprpoerly one phrase. The media. People tend to forget that it was a very touchy and hot topic. And well what sells newspapers? What makes ppl watch one show over the other? If it isnt sex, drugs or rock and roll then it has to be showing one prersons misfortune. Now I've spoken to many 'Nam vets and very few ever heard of "fragging" in thier units. Hell some of them hadnt heard the term till they made it home. Or back to HQ. Now im not saying that it didnt happen, it probally did but not to anywhere near the extent to what the media proclaims. Now I persoanlly HATE the media. They just throw a monkey wrench in the worls of society as far as I'm concerened.

Vietnam to politics is like a duck to water. Mainly it all goes back to LBJ and his total incompetence for leadership. He thought he could run the war from the Oval Office, and not on the battlefield. I still cant believe the sanctions he put on his own troops. He basically gavr ther NVA the entire " war". Nixon was too little too late. That and he was a moron. Mainly if u want to know what "nam was about, Head to the memorial, theres almost always a vet there, and ask him. It isnt always easy for them, but im sure the vast majority will be gald to pass on thier story. If you want a good televised representation, theres a show called " shadow of the blade"? I think, not too sure of the exact title. Its about a 'Nam era chopper that goes all over the US and theres interviews with soldiers and thier families. Thats the real story.

 

[blackheart]

Although we must be faced with the moral duty of abhorring the war, the Vietnam of today is a progressive, slowly democratizing nation. In retrospect, the triumph of the north, despite the cost of millions of lives, and despite decades of adjustment, has at least brought progressive, industrializing forces into what was by all means a degenerative colonial society(see below).

The progressive, industrialising forces took 25 years to come to Vietnam.

 

[Bizon77]

sorry for the but I've been away for quite a while

I agree with the above post that the fall of the south to communist (and the effect of the war its slef) put back that region many years. Little or no good came of it.
Who knows what Cambodia and Vietnam would be like if the communists were kicked out in the 60s. More like Thailand and Malasysia maybe economically.

 

[Jawz II]

here are the stories of a certain Lt Ulf Heller:http://home.swbell.net/urheller/vnbktoc.html

its been a while since i read it, but i can highly recommend it, its a good read, mostly fun and funny, i specially like the part about his epic battle against a giant rat