Virtue Traits

[Josephias]

I post this separately to the Affinity Traits thread, altough it follows a similar concept.

In fact, probably the reason behind both threads is the new leader Trait system looks cool, but feels too much isolated of other gameplay mechanics. Maybe it is a design decisión (to not overlimit / add complexity to a new mechanic), but it really feels strange traits are not linked somehow to civ Affinity, or even more, Virtues.

OK, I understand traits represent leader "personality", and virtues the faction "personality", and there can be degrees of liberty among them, but in any case, ¿does it make sense the leader has a fully different personality to the faction?. As an example: ¿would you buy a Defensive, Disciplined, Imperial leader in a civ with no Military Virtues? ¿or a Industrialist, Ambitious, Efficient leader where Industry is not a virtue?

So, I propose this tread for discussion on two fronts. Assuming we consider the possibility to link traits to virtues:

1. ¿What would be the best way to link them?. So far, I can think of two or three:
- the most basic one, traits are unlocked by advancement on a specific virtue tree (requirements won't be too high - maybe 1, 3 and 5-7 virtues for each level, with some traits being able to be unlocked by two virtue tres - and even traits with lesser requirements).
- or, a suitable trait + virtue combo increases health (people are happier*cough*"healthier" if you as a leader share their virtues). I will not propose negative health (as "malus" systems are not in trend), but they could be considered.
- also, as another option or an addition to previous ones, DC cost for new traits is reduced depending on the number of suitable virtues you have.

2. And, of course, ¿to which virtue family would you link each trait?. I have made already some associations (i.e, for Domestic - Humanitarian or Developer go with Prosperity; Industrialist and Commercial with Industry, Refined and Innovative with Knowledge or Defensive and Vigilant with Military) and I will come back with a detailed list if I can spend a bit more time on it, but ¿do you have already some proposals?.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I think Virtues need a major redo both with traits and affinity.

The way I would do it
1. Certain Levels of Traits require Certain Levels of virtue (ie for level 1-nothing needed, for level 2-5 of the virtue, for level 3-10)

2. Virtues require affinity
--level 1 virtues require no affinity
--level 2+3 virtues require you to Identify with a particular affinity (similar to ideology tenets)
--level 2 requires lvl ~6 pure affinity required (or 4-4 hybrid)
--level 3 requires level ~10 pure affinity (or 8-8 hybrid)
Virtues of level 2+3 would also ADD to your affinity level
(Hybrid might just be a mix... so level 2 Purity-Harmony hybrid Prosperity would have 3 of the Purity and 3 of the Harmony...I'd make each level have 6)

 

[Galgus]

I worry that linking them would worsen any problems of some virtues and traits being better than others, and the problem with Might generally being weak for anything other than a Domination victory.

Also, nations and cultures are complex - I don't find it unbelievable that a colony valuing Knowledge would also have some defined military stances.

With only three Trait categories, I think players are meant to fill all of them out with their own selections, in time, to define their colony.
___________________________________________________

@KrikkitTwo

Option two would fairly needlessly punish high levels of Culture generation by gating Virtue development.

And I think varying Virtues and Traits with Affinities helps to show how not every incarnation or interpretation of an Affinity is the same.

I would, however, like a Trait or Virtue-esq bonus system for Affinities to be developed.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

@KrikkitTwo

Option two would fairly needlessly punish high levels of Culture generation by gating Virtue development.

And I think varying Virtues and Traits with Affinities helps to show how not every incarnation or interpretation of an Affinity is the same.

I would, however, like a Trait or Virtue-esq bonus system for Affinities to be developed.

Well perhaps the 'gates' are too high...possibly level 2 virtues only require level 2 affinity (or 1-1 hybrid)...and level 3 virtues only require 4 affinity (or 2-2 hybrid) .the key being you would have to choose at some point and your virtues would reflect that.
(rechoosing would be possible...but expensive)

I think they would show the variation in different interpretations of Affinity if

"Purity Might" got some effects that aren't present in either "Purity Prosperity" or "Harmony Might"

Right now all benefits in "Purity Might" are the same as one of those two.

It also would make the Affinity more a part of your society and not just your military units/technology (a high culture would help you get affinity just like a high science does)

 

[Galgus]

I would be fine with adopting Virtues and researching Technologies having some equal importance in Affinity advancement, but I'd rather not limit Virtue choice based on Affinity.

It would be interesting to see a colony somewhat forgo science to advance with culture, choosing Virtue bonuses over Technological unlocks.
__________________________________________________

I definitely want Affinity to play more of a role mechanically, but I'd do it with either DefiantMars' Affinity Traits system or my Devotions system.

The former uses the Trait system for five Affinity trait slots with two options each for customization.

The latter is a linear progression system with a list of bonuses for each Affinity and Hybrid which resembles Virtues with Science contributing some progression.

 

[Josephias]

I think it would be a good idea to have several sources of affinity points. Virtues is a great option (also, if affinity-linked terrain improvements are not pushed to give specific benefits to their affinity, they could be moved otherwise, to give certain affinity points when made - and lost if they are replaced by something else, to not be easily explotable).

Back on the topic, one thing is the leader has some specificities that do not fit the colony. This is understandable, and this is why the tresholds I'd propose should be relatively low. Other thing is the leader traits are completely different to the colony virtues (even more now I realize treaties will imply indeed people of your colony working along the leader trait...)

So, one way or another, I think either traits should help virtues or otherwise - this could be other option to consider indeed: that is, having a leader with more military-linked traits will benefit you when choosing military virtues (i.e. by reducing the amount of culture needed for the next virtue if you take a Military one - or (what is similar), having an "aqueduct" effect, keelping a % of the culture used already available for the next virtue).

E.g. (values to be tweaked)
- For each level of Domestic Trait level developed, you keep 2% of the culture points used on a prosperity/industry virtue towards your next virtue.
- For each level of Military Trait level developed, you keep 3% of the culture points used on a military virtue towards your next virtue.
- For each level of Political Trait level developed, you keep 3% of the culture points used on a knowledge virtue towards your next virtue.

Additionally, specific traits could contribute with 1%-2% more of the culture used on specific áreas, some that come to mind, in example

Humanitarian (+2% extra on culture kept from prosperity virtues)
Refined (+2% extra on culture kept from knowledge virtues)
Cooperative (+1% extra from prosperity, +1% extra from industry)
Vigilant (+1% extra from military, +1% extra from knowledge)
...
Expansionist (+2% extra from military)
Generous (+1% extra from prosperity, +1% extra from industry)
....
Efficient (+2% extra from industry)
Profiteering (+1% extra each for industry, knowledge and prosperity)
....
and so on.