Vokarya's Workshop: Units

[oldnooob]

Well then how could you change the priority for the AI? To me the Mounted Infantry is the only land unit the AI builds and they are essentialy invincible against attacking Riflemen and Grenadiers. Calvary don't stand a chance especially with the - to attack cities and Light Calvary and Lancers are just a joke.
In my current v705 game the only way I can dislodge 4 Mounted Infantry from a city is to sacrifice 8 cannons and even then I will lose 4 or 5 5th and 6th level Grenadiers and Riflemen. losing 8 - 10 Prime units after two rounds of (20) ship bombardments is to much. It takes me hundreds if not thousands of years to create a large high level attack force. two or three cities an I am wiped out!! Mounted Infantry are too powerful!
Sorry to whine so much, In my next release install I will try to adjust the xml to reflect my concerns.

 

[Vokarya]

Many things have been improved since rev705, also regarding AI logic. I'm not sure it's necessary. More tests are needed. As for maintenance cost, I understand very well how it works in real life. But I fear it could cripple AI economy.

What if we take UNITAI_CITY_DEFENSE off of these mobile defense units? I personally don't see this as that much different from defending cities with Mechanized Infantry in the late game, but if it's perceived as a problem, then let's find a solution; but I really do not want to lose this upgrade path. Mounted infantry also aren't that much harder to train than cavalry. They ride TO battle, but not ON the battlefield, and that's why they are able to get defensive bonuses.

What is UNITAI_CITY_SPECIAL? Mounted Infantry has these 7 Unit AI choices:

• UNITAI_ATTACK
• UNITAI_PILLAGE
• UNITAI_RESERVE
• UNITAI_COUNTER
• UNITAI_CITY_COUNTER
• UNITAI_CITY_DEFENSE
• UNITAI_CITY_SPECIAL

I think I understand all of them except CITY_COUNTER (how is this different from COUNTER?) and CITY_SPECIAL.

 

[oldnooob]

What if we take UNITAI_CITY_DEFENSE off of these mobile defense units? I personally don't see this as that much different from defending cities with Mechanized Infantry in the late game, but if it's perceived as a problem, then let's find a solution; but I really do not want to lose this upgrade path. Mounted infantry also aren't that much harder to train than cavalry. They ride TO battle, but not ON the battlefield, and that's why they are able to get defensive bonuses.

What is UNITAI_CITY_SPECIAL? Mounted Infantry has these 7 Unit AI choices:

• UNITAI_ATTACK
• UNITAI_PILLAGE
• UNITAI_RESERVE
• UNITAI_COUNTER
• UNITAI_CITY_COUNTER
• UNITAI_CITY_DEFENSE
• UNITAI_CITY_SPECIAL

I think I understand all of them except CITY_COUNTER (how is this different from COUNTER?) and CITY_SPECIAL.

Thanks for that info. I accept that the mounted units are part of this mod. What I do in cases like this is adjust MY game to reflect MY reality when I can. I do not code but I can adjust simple xmls.

 

[Vokarya]

3. Ship of the Line and Iron Frigate both dovetail into Early Destroyer. This makes them redundant to me , why not have Ship of the Line become Pre Dreadnaught? It was after all, the most powerful ship according to the Civlopedia.

I've been meaning to do this particular change for a while. I think what I would like to do is this:

• Caravel upgrades to Brigantine, not Sloop (Brigantine has cargo space, Sloop does not)
• Brigantine upgrades to Frigate, not Man'O'War (detaching the Man'O'War from the rest of the early warship line)
• Ship of the Line upgrades to Ironclad Battleship (making Man'O'War the first heavy warship)

I'm not sure if Sloop needs the Can Explore Rival Territory ability. It seems odd to have two separate ships (or pairs) with this ability, the first being Caravel-Brigantine and the second being Sloop, after which the ability appears on Privateer (civic-limited) and Submarines.

 

[oldnooob]

Brilliant ideas!

I have found something that substantiates my concerns about Mounted Rifleman.
grenadier has a bonus to early tank but no bonus to mounted units so you have str 28 with attack bonus vs str22 with no defense bonus.
Or on the other side you have str 22 with no attack bonus to mounted units vs str28 with several defensive bonus.
Similar situation applies other units of the era against Mounted Rifleman.

 

[Vokarya]

Brilliant ideas!

I have found something that substantiates my concerns about Mounted Rifleman.
grenadier has a bonus to early tank but no bonus to mounted units so you have str 28 with attack bonus vs str22 with no defense bonus.
Or on the other side you have str 22 with no attack bonus to mounted units vs str28 with several defensive bonus.
Similar situation applies other units of the era against Mounted Rifleman.

I probably made Mounted Rifleman too powerful. What I am going to do is this: lower Mounted Rifleman to Strength 24 (less than Rifleman at 26) and make them upgrade from Musketman rather than Rifleman. Unfortunately, Musketmen are already auto-upgrading to Grenadiers, so that won't help the upgrade issue. That's going to take more AI programming than I can handle.

 

[oldnooob]

I lowered the mounted Rifleman to 27 and attempted to increase his cost to 600 from 300 today. my thought is to reduce his attractiveness to the ai. I would like to figure out how to make the Rifleman more attractive to the AI so the ground troops will be able to assume their proper role as the primary defensive unit.
I do not agree with the change to musketman. I would prefer that the choice was still available at Rifling so you could choose to have either one or both. Choice is what makes fun.

Did you notice the missing attack bonus against mounted units that I pointed out? to me this is an omission that needs to be rectified. A simple xml notation would work wouldn't it?

 

[Vokarya]

I lowered the mounted Rifleman to 27 and attempted to increase his cost to 600 from 300 today. my thought is to reduce his attractiveness to the ai. I would like to figure out how to make the Rifleman more attractive to the AI so the ground troops will be able to assume their proper role as the primary defensive unit.
I do not agree with the change to musketman. I would prefer that the choice was still available at Rifling so you could choose to have either one or both. Choice is what makes fun.

I think you're reading me wrong. Mounted Rifleman is still AVAILABLE at Rifling, and you are still choosing between Rifleman and Mounted Rifleman, but because Mounted Rifleman would be weaker, I don't want Rifleman upgrading to Mounted Rifle any more. Musketman upgrades to Mounted Rifle instead.

 

[oldnooob]

Did you notice the missing attack bonus against mounted units that I pointed out? to me this is an omission that needs to be rectified. A simple xml notation would work wouldn't it?[/QUOTE]
So is it feasible for me to add a notation in the xml of my game to achieve this bonus?

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Theres also a problem with the upgrade path, Grenadiers are available BEFORE rifling.

The AI will upgrade ALL bows, pikes and swords to Muskets, then will grab chemistry and upgrade the lot to Grenadiers.

This means they have no rifles, except those they make, and Mounted riflemen by the bucket load., who can easily defeat Muskets defending cities. Promoted muskets at that. 3 level promotion.

Mounted rifles might need more of a city attack penality, 25% of 28 is only 7, that's 21 V's 20 :strenght: musket, without promotions. And woe be told if you try to attack them out of the city, then its 10% at best.

 

[Vokarya]

Theres also a problem with the upgrade path, Grenadiers are available BEFORE rifling.

The AI will upgrade ALL bows, pikes and swords to Muskets, then will grab chemistry and upgrade the lot to Grenadiers.

This means they have no rifles, except those they make, and Mounted riflemen by the bucket load., who can easily defeat Muskets defending cities. Promoted muskets at that. 3 level promotion.

With the next changes, Grenadiers will be off the mainline path at Absolutism, so you just have to choose your research carefully depending on what units you want to auto-upgrade to.

 

[Vokarya]

Ambassador is a new upgrade of the Envoy. I think every unit should have a chance to upgrade, and the Envoy is no exception. Ambassador shows up at Telegraph. This gives you a good 2 eras to use the Envoy before it phases out.

View attachment 377320View attachment 377319

I found a better artwork based on the Modern Great Spy. The original had a pistol and a dynamite bomb that I was able to remove.

The Ambassador gets the following bonuses over the Envoy:

• Speed increased to 3
• Quantity increased to 3 (and a ForceObsoleteTech added to Envoy so you can't build Envoys if you have your full complement of Ambassadors)
• Has the Can Explore Rival Territory ability. Keep in mind that Ambassadors are not invisible and so can be attacked by a rival that you are at war with. You can use Ambassadors against rivals that you are at peace with but haven't signed Right of Passage/Open Borders with.

 

[Vokarya]

Do you think we have room for one more siege unit? I'd like to introduce the Ballista is a precursor to the Catapult. I'm thinking of the Ballista as a counterpart to the Ram; the Ram can bombard city defenses but not attack, while the Ballista can attack, deal collateral damage, and even range bombard, but can't bombard city defenses. It doesn't deal much damage, as it is only Strength 5 (less than Catapult's 6) and deals collateral damage to only 4 units (vs. 6 for Catapult) so I think it makes a good inclusion.

View attachment 377326View attachment 377327

 

[Rezca]

Do you think we have room for one more siege unit? I'd like to introduce the Ballista is a precursor to the Catapult. I'm thinking of the Ballista as a counterpart to the Ram; the Ram can bombard city defenses but not attack, while the Ballista can attack, deal collateral damage, and even range bombard, but can't bombard city defenses. It doesn't deal much damage, as it is only Strength 5 (less than Catapult's 6) and deals collateral damage to only 4 units (vs. 6 for Catapult) so I think it makes a good inclusion.

View attachment 377326View attachment 377327

I approve of this idea, wonder what others will think though


As a side-note, I loved using Ballistas (And later scorpions) in the Age of Empires series. Weren't as destructive as the friendly-fire superweapon Catapults, but they were still nice infantry killers. Could snipe those pesky AI Horse Archers and composite bows nicely without needing to get close (And the AI loooved firing then backing up then firing again in the first game)

 

[<Nexus>]

Do you think we have room for one more siege unit? I'd like to introduce the Ballista is a precursor to the Catapult. I'm thinking of the Ballista as a counterpart to the Ram; the Ram can bombard city defenses but not attack, while the Ballista can attack, deal collateral damage, and even range bombard, but can't bombard city defenses. It doesn't deal much damage, as it is only Strength 5 (less than Catapult's 6) and deals collateral damage to only 4 units (vs. 6 for Catapult) so I think it makes a good inclusion.

View attachment 377326View attachment 377327

Nice. I ike it

 

[oldnooob]

I am sorry but I cannot understand the logic behind the upgrade path for Grand War and Ship of The Line, Two of the most powerful ships of their era upgrading to a lowly Destroyer??? when the Ironclad Battleship appears from nowhere with no history all by itself.
I believe the Destroyer would be a better choice to appear from nowhere as it was developed from smaller class vessels like the Corvette etc., small fast coastal patrol type boats enlarged for ocean duty. And of course those class of boats are already extinct at that stage of the game.

 

[Vokarya]

I am sorry but I cannot understand the logic behind the upgrade path for Grand War and Ship of The Line, Two of the most powerful ships of their era upgrading to a lowly Destroyer??? when the Ironclad Battleship appears from nowhere with no history all by itself.
I believe the Destroyer would be a better choice to appear from nowhere as it was developed from smaller class vessels like the Corvette etc., small fast coastal patrol type boats enlarged for ocean duty. And of course those class of boats are already extinct at that stage of the game.

I'm fixing that in the next revision. Man'O'War and Ship of the Line will upgrade to Ironclad Battleship instead of Destroyer.

 

[oldnooob]

 

[os79]

I had my units on auto upgrade and found to my surprise that Arquebusier upgraded to Dragoon. I'm ok with that, though I wish my city guardians stayed on to Musketeers. But there's problem of my Heavy Swordsmen and Macemen being left behind. They're in my army stacks. Are you working on these or are you satisfied with your Unit Upgrades as are?

 

[Vokarya]

I had my units on auto upgrade and found to my surprise that Arquebusier upgraded to Dragoon. I'm ok with that, though I wish my city guardians stayed on to Musketeers. But there's problem of my Heavy Swordsmen and Macemen being left behind. They're in my army stacks. Are you working on these or are you satisfied with your Unit Upgrades as are?

Heavy Swordsmen and Macemen don't upgrade until you get to Musketmen. Only Longbow and Crossbow upgrade to Arquebus and then Dragoon from there. So Heavy Swords and Maces can't upgrade to Dragoon, but will eventually be able to upgrade to Mounted Rifleman. I think the upgrade tree is complex enough right now, so I don't want to add any new general upgrades.