Vokarya's Workshop: Wonders

Another Wonder that I think should be cleaned up is World News Network. It has a lot of multiple abilities and I don't like having this many. I think you can tell which Wonders come from original BTS and which ones have been added by the number of abilities. BTS Wonders have one or two unique abilities, while AND added wonders have several. The religious wonders seem particularly bad about this. I would love to find some ways to cut them down a little.

For now, these are the abilities I would like to keep on WNN:
  • Free TV Station in every city. This is the "World" part of the Wonder. Free buildings are pretty common, but this is one that you have to work a little to benefit from. In this case, you need Power and a Broadcast Tower or better to turn the TV on.
  • 1 free Celebrity. Celebrity is a very special specialist type, reserved for a few Modern-Era National and World Wonders. I don't like free specialists of any kind on ordinary buildings (not civic, unique, or Wonder). So Celebrity needs to be very restricted.
  • -10% War Weariness. I actually think we should increase this to -20%. We will get rid of some other abilities. Global war weariness reduction will also be found on The Sagas (obsolete by the time WNN appears), Mt. Rushmore, Propaganda Net (with a culture penalty), and Potala Palace (requires Buddhism as SR).

These are the abilities we should drop.
  • +2 gold, +2 culture from Celebrity. As I said, Celebrity is so restricted that this is no longer interesting.
  • -25% Anarchy Length. By this time, Independence Hall and Cristo Redentor have already appeared and so this ability is not special either. If you really need to switch without anarchy, save up your GP for a Golden Age.
  • +25% Golden Age Length. We have several GA-increases that have already appeared. Mausoleum of Mausollos is still around, as is Neuschwanstein. Cheomseongdae is close to obsolete (Satellites). I don't think we should stack this many GA increases.

What I think we should add to replace this is +50% Enemy War Weariness. Enemy War Weariness is increased by the Terracotta Army, the Nanite Defuser, the Statue of Zeus, and the Peace Movement. The Peace Movement is a civic building, and the Statue of Zeus is a Shrine now, so those are much harder to manipulate. The Nanite Defuser also comes so late that I don't think it would have much of an impact. This leaves only Terracotta Army. So I think WNN is around long enough (early Modern Era to endgame) that it would have an impact. Overall, WNN would be this:
  • Free TV Station for all cities
  • 1 free Celebrity
  • -20% War Weariness for you
  • +50% War Weariness for your enemies
That would make a nice, clean Wonder for the Modern Era.
 
I like the touch of increased war weariness for your enemies; it portrays the propaganda spin you can pull while possessing this wonder very well.
 
Balancing specialist slots from National Wonders is another thing that I have had on my to-do list. Specialists from general buildings are balanced right now; the basic 6 types (Artist, Engineer, Magistrate, Merchant, Scientist, Spy) are mostly on the 1-2-3-4-6-8-10 curve, while Priests get 1/religion from Temple, +1 from Scriptorium with a State Religion up to the middle of the Renaissance. Nobles, Slaves, Celebrities, and Android Workers are separate due to their unique circumstances.

Specialists from National Wonders, including the limited buildings (Cathedral, District Courthouse, Scotland Yard) are wildly out of balance.
  • Priests get no specialist slots from National Wonders, but do get Specialist slots from Cathedrals; 2 per Cathedral, which is 1 Cathedral per religion per number of cities divided by number of cities per Cathedral. This is almost certainly more than most other specialist types will get. I'd prune it down to 1 Priest per Cathedral, but I think that would hurt mono-religious states too much. A possibility would be to give Cathedrals only 1 Priest slot and the Intolerant civic unlimited Priest slots.
  • Magistrates get no slots at all currently.
  • Spies get 1 slot per District Courthouse (approximately 1/3 cities), 1 slot from Supreme Court, and 1 slot from Secret Army Base.
  • Artists get 3 slots from Globe Theatre and 1 slot from Orbital Hotel.
  • Merchants get 3 slots total from Breweries, 3 from Wall Street and 1 from World Bank.
  • Engineers get 3 slots total from Glasssmiths, 3 slots total from Aluminum Factories, 3 slots from Ironworks, and 4 slots from Deep Core Mine.
  • Scientists get 2 slots from Academy, 3 from Oxford University, 1 from First Nuclear Test, 4 from National Weather Service PLUS 2 free Scientists, 1 from Radio Telescope, 2 from Centers for Disease Control, 1 from Deep Space Research Institute, 1 from Silicon Valley, and 1 from Supercollider.

We really need to prune back Engineers and Scientists, and add some slots to the other types.

I think the best first thing to do is convert District Courthouse to producing Magistrate specialists (only 1 per building) and Supreme Court to giving 2 Magistrate slots. That would be enough Magistrates in addition to the Magistrates from buildings.
 
Now that Steel Mill is a National Wonder, I think we need to do more to differentiate it from Ironworks. Both are Steel-producing, hammer-providing National Wonders. What I don't like is having them be stackable and having Ironworks produce Steel without Coal or Iron. It seems to make Steel Mill redundant unless you need Steel to trade.

I wonder if it would be better to just cut Ironworks, or to remove the Steel resource from Ironworks and move it to another tech. If we move Ironworks, I think Railroad (only 3 tricks) or Replaceable Parts (2.5 tricks) would be good. Steel has 4 other tricks (Steel Mill, Barbed Wire, Iron Frigate, Statue of Liberty) and would be fine without the Ironworks.
 
Vokarya said:
Now that Steel Mill is a National Wonder, I think we need to do more to differentiate it from Ironworks. Both are Steel-producing, hammer-providing National Wonders. What I don't like is having them be stackable and having Ironworks produce Steel without Coal or Iron. It seems to make Steel Mill redundant unless you need Steel to trade.

I wonder if it would be better to just cut Ironworks, or to remove the Steel resource from Ironworks and move it to another tech. If we move Ironworks, I think Railroad (only 3 tricks) or Replaceable Parts (2.5 tricks) would be good. Steel has 4 other tricks (Steel Mill, Barbed Wire, Iron Frigate, Statue of Liberty) and would be fine without the Ironworks.
Click to expand...

Well, it's right they're very similar and that there's abundance of steel now, but the ability to build steel without iron or coal is something unique, I'm not sure we should remove it. Anyway if you really feel it's necessary, it's OK with me in the end.
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;14387201 said:
Well, it's right they're very similar and that there's abundance of steel now, but the ability to build steel without iron or coal is something unique, I'm not sure we should remove it. Anyway if you really feel it's necessary, it's OK with me in the end.
Click to expand...

I do NOT like producing Steel without Iron, at least in the Industrial Era. Otherwise, Steel resource requirements aren't much of a requirement at all.

I think it's important to have one main way to get a manufactured resource, and possibly some alternates, but the alternates shouldn't nearly as easy as the main way. For example, the main way to get Oil Products is to have Oil and build an Oil Refinery. The alternate ways are be Japan and build a Shale Plant, but that requires being Japan from the beginning of the game (or play with Assimilation and conquer a Japanese city, assuming they are in the game and they have a city you can conquer -- assumptions that are not always true!); build Standard Ethanol, but that requires a little bit more technology (Plastics vs. Combustion) and spending a Great Scientist; or build a Biofuel Refinery, but that comes at the end of the Modern Era (Genetic Engineering).

The key strategic resource requirements of the Industrial Era are Steel, Oil Products, Aluminum, and Uranium. These should be the ones that are difficult to find substitutes for. I think we should be encouraging expansion, trade, or war to get these resources, not just building something that provides the resource without effort.
 
Just wondering, why was Steel Mill introduced? If it was to produce Steel, then why does Ironworks also do that? Ironworks was from BTS wasn't it? Perhaps Ironworks should just increase production in the city (as in BTS), and Steelworks doesn't increase production but does produce Steel.
 
aggri1 said:
Just wondering, why was Steel Mill introduced? If it was to produce Steel, then why does Ironworks also do that? Ironworks was from BTS wasn't it? Perhaps Ironworks should just increase production in the city (as in BTS), and Steelworks doesn't increase production but does produce Steel.
Click to expand...

Steel Mill was introduced way back. The changelog says it was something added in version 0.8 of RoM, before AND was created. Ironworks got a Steel at the same time. I agree with making Ironworks not produce Steel and only increasing production. Steel Mill can get a small production bonus, but not where it currently is. It's currently +50% production with power, equal to an Ironworks with Iron and Coal. I think +25% max or even +20% would be fairer, since it doesn't count against the National Wonder limits.

I also like the idea of moving a non-Steel-producing Ironworks into the Renaissance Era. Either Chemistry or Replaceable Parts would be the most beneficial. Both are core BTS techs but only have 2.5 tricks each. Chemistry has the Great Scientist, Laboratory, and +1 production from Workshop (minor trick). Replaceable Parts has the Textile Mill, Cotton Gin, and +1 production from Watermill/Windmill (minor trick). This would actually make Ironworks a slightly graded national wonder. It would start out with just the +25% production with Iron, and then could gain the +25% production with Coal only when you reach Steam Power.

Furthermore, the Industrial Era has more National Wonders than it should. Including the resource-producing NW's, the Industrial Era is 7 NW's above where it should be. Without the resource-producers, it is 3 NW too high. The Renaissance is 2 below average without the resource wonders and 1 above average with, but moving the Ironworks would even things out a bit more.
 
Should the Labor Union national wonder have a different effect? I've been looking at National Wonders in general and I think that the Labor Union has a very generic effect. It gives +1 happiness and +1 health to every city on its continent. I have a hard time justifying why this should only be limited to one continent. I think a more appropriate effect would be a production bonus in all cities (+10%) and a maintenance increase in all cities (again, I think +10%). This would be greater production at the expense of gold for better wages.

Also, I think Labor Union should require X Factories to build, with the same scaling factor as other National Wonders. We have some inconsistency among National Wonder requirements. Some require multiple ordinary buildings to create, but others do not. For consistency, I think we should have building requirements on our National Wonders if they aren't resource-producers or have another special requirement. Special requirements would include the minimum level requirement for the Statue of Champion, Heroic Epic, and West Point, or the World Project requirements of World Bank, Fusion Power Plant, and Deep Space Research Lab.
 
Here is a plan to rebalance specialist slots from National Wonders. I went for a total of 7 slots per specialist type. Priests get their National Wonder slots from Cathedrals (2 slots per X Cities with the religion) and Magistrates get their National Wonder slots from District Courthouse (1 per X cities) and Supreme Court (2 total). I also want to avoid specialist slots on the resource-producing wonders to control stacking.

Artist
  • 1 slot from Statue of Champion (NEW)
  • 3 slots from Globe Theatre
  • 2 slots from Hermitage (NEW)
  • 1 slot from Mt. Rushmore (NEW)
    • Orbital Hotel loses its Artist slot. I think it comes too late to be very useful.

Engineer
  • 3 slots from Ironworks
  • 2 slots from Labor Union (NEW)
  • 2 slots from Deep Core Mine
    • Aluminum Factory and Glasssmith lose their Engineer slots.

Merchant
  • 1 slot from Treasury (NEW)
  • 3 slots from Wall Street
  • 3 slots from World Bank (increased from 1 slot)
    • Brewery loses its Merchant slot; I don't want Craft wonders to have specialist slots.

Scientist
  • 2 slots from Academy
  • 3 slots from Oxford University
  • 2 slots from Deep Space Research Lab
    • Radio Telescope and Supercollider lose their Scientist slots; I think instead, Radio Telescope should double the production speed of Observatory and Supercollider should give +50% production to Accelerator. They keep their science bonuses.
    • First Nuclear Test loses its Scientist slot. I think FNT should only be worth building if you want to pursue nuclear weapons. (If the AIs aren't building it, we can increase its AI weight.)
    • Center for Disease Control loses its Scientist slots; it has enough bonuses without them.
    • Silicon Valley should lose its Scientist slot and science bonuses. For consistency, I would treat it like any other resource-crafting NW.
    • National Weather Service needs a whole new ability or could be outright deleted. We have enough Industrial Era NW without it.

Spy
  • 2 slots from Scotland Yard; I find Scotland Yard to act like a National Wonder even if it isn't coded as one.
  • 1 slot from Courier System (NEW).
  • 2 slots from Propaganda Net (NEW).
  • 2 slots from Secret Army Base (increased from 1).
 
Only problems I can see is the Courier Sstem and the Academy going obsolete at some point. Apart from that, everything looks fancy.

Also, I'm all for labor union giving +10%:hammers: in exchange for +10% maintenance in all cities.
 
thegreekweegee said:
Only problems I can see is the Courier Sstem and the Academy going obsolete at some point. Apart from that, everything looks fancy.

Also, I'm all for labor union giving +10%:hammers: in exchange for +10% maintenance in all cities.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure Academy needs to go obsolete. None of the other GP abilities go away. Also, I didn't count Quantum Lab. It doesn't show up until the end game (Quantum Computing), but it provides 2 free Scientists per X cities.

As far as Spies go, the Courier System is available much earlier than most of the other NW that grant specialists. Oxford is late Medieval. Ironworks will be late Renaissance (I'm moving it to Replaceable Parts). Wall Street is early Industrial. Also, the only thing stopping you from building more than one Scotland Yard is the availability of Great Spies. I usually find I can spawn more than 1 in a long game, so that is an option when the Courier System goes obsolete.
 
Vokarya said:
That will not happen. Ironworks does not have the mythological heft to be a WW.
Click to expand...

Than what about limiting it like Academy: What if only Great Engineers could build it?
 
Zeta Nexus said:
Than what about limiting it like Academy: What if only Great Engineers could build it?
Click to expand...

I don't like that either. The Great Engineer's unique ability is to rush anything. The Great Scientist's unique ability is to build an Academy. GE can still build Ironworks, but I don't want it to be mandatory.

I have settled on what I like: move the Ironworks to Replaceable Parts and not have it produce any Steel resources. This makes it a pure-hammer National Wonder.
 
When I made my list of Wonder abilities, I noticed that we are not using the Reduce unit upgrade cost ability very much. The only Wonder that currently uses this is Sun Tzu's Art of War.

I was thinking that this would be a good ability for Venetian Arsenal and Willow Run. To give them a proper "world" effect, I would reduce the production by 100%, so Venetian Arsenal gives +200% for Water units and Willow Run gives +100% for Air units, and then give each Wonder -25% upgrade cost. Venetian Arsenal would stack with Art of War, but both go obsolete before Willow Run appears.

On a side note, I also am questioning if Art of War needs to give both a Great General bonus and an upgrade discount. I think what might be better is keep the GG bonus, remove the upgrade discount, and increase military production for Art of War's city. This is more speculative than the above.
 
Wonder of the World (suggestion):

HARAPPA

(the harappian civilization is considered among the most civilized from the ancient world - rather pre-historic even, or pre written\ recorded History. Considered one of the dawn of civilization cultures, along with egypt and the "chinese" yellow river civilization. This civilization has been only recently (like 18th hundred or so) discovered... so its truly the lost civilization. When I practiced yôga I have studied that it's believed the "arians", barbarians from northwest or whatever, might have invadded and contributed to its downfall. Also, the change in the course of the river might have been the cause. Additionnally: it's believed to be where and when yôga first came to be, but it was a matriarcal society. When the arians show up, this tantric (matriarcal, sensorial) characteristic changes to bramacharya (patriarcal, repressive) because of the culture of the arians. This is important because they weren't a war oriented society. Lastly: Archeological sites show really advanced urban developments such as sewer canalization and bath/sauna houses, which show a kind of advancement for the ancient world that would only show up again much later.)

I've only seen Harappa and harappian civilization in Civ IV as a barbarian city, but it was so much more. I'm really no sure but I've also played either a mod or scenario where you could choose to be harrapian. It might be that's on Civ III but I don't think so...

(demands) erfordert: "y" Kultur
really easy to build
great recompense (+14000 culture for example or it gives you 3 settlers)
as a counterpart unleashes a barbarian horde (or two or three) OR barbarians are attracted from far away :P

OR ...
 
hyko said:
Wonder of the World (suggestion):

HARAPPA

(the harappian civilization is considered among the most civilized from the ancient world - rather pre-historic even, or pre written\ recorded History. Considered one of the dawn of civilization cultures, along with egypt and the "chinese" yellow river civilization. This civilization has been only recently (like 18th hundred or so) discovered... so its truly the lost civilization. When I practiced yôga I have studied that it's believed the "arians", barbarians from northwest or whatever, might have invadded and contributed to its downfall. Also, the change in the course of the river might have been the cause. Additionnally: it's believed to be where and when yôga first came to be, but it was a matriarcal society. When the arians show up, this tantric (matriarcal, sensorial) characteristic changes to bramacharya (patriarcal, repressive) because of the culture of the arians. This is important because they weren't a war oriented society. Lastly: Archeological sites show really advanced urban developments such as sewer canalization and bath/sauna houses, which show a kind of advancement for the ancient world that would only show up again much later.)

I've only seen Harappa and harappian civilization in Civ IV as a barbarian city, but it was so much more. I'm really no sure but I've also played either a mod or scenario where you could choose to be harrapian. It might be that's on Civ III but I don't think so...

(demands) erfordert: "y" Kultur
really easy to build
great recompense (+14000 culture for example or it gives you 3 settlers)
as a counterpart unleashes a barbarian horde (or two or three) OR barbarians are attracted from far away :P

OR ...
Click to expand...

IIRC Harappa is part of the Mega Civ Pack module. I see no need to introduce them as a wonder.
 
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