Vokarya's Workshop: Wonders

[Vokarya]

Here's another change that needs to be made. One of the side-effects of adjusting the Ancient and Classical Era was to remove a large chunk of the Ancient Era's Wonders. Including Shrines, the Ancient Era now has only 14 Wonders and the Classical Era has 32. (On a weighted average, the Ancient should have 19 and the Classical 18). I don't mind having the Ancient Era be low on Wonders. It is the era of survival and growth. What I do not like is the Classical Era being super-high, although there's less that can be done about it without more disruption than I would like. The Wonders that are in the Classical Era are historically built in that era, and the Wonders that are on the high-trick-count techs are either from BTS (so I don't want to get rid of them), too iconic to lose (Colosseum, Olympic Games, Terracotta Army), or the road-building wonders (Silk Road, Via Appia) that I don't want to lose because it makes Golden Spike stand out. I'd probably rate Kotoku-in as currently the most unnecessary wonder we have. Buddhism has another Wonder (Palace of Potala), Aesthetics has two other Wonders (Parthenon, Shwedagon Paya) and a trick count of 6.5, and the Classical Era has more Wonders than any other.

One fix we can do is to move Himeji Castle from Vassalage to Chivalry. Himeji was originally kept on Vassalage to keep it at the two-trick minimum. After Siege Warfare became Mechanics, I moved several tricks to Vassalage. Vassalage now has a trick count of 5: City Gatehouse, High Walls, Pikeman, Vassal States, and Himeji itself. Giving up one trick won't hurt Vassalage that much. If we do this, then we should also push Himeji's obsolescence point from Communism to Modern Warfare.

 

[Vokarya]

I've created a minor wrinkle with Carhenge. I am going to have it add both the strength of mechanical units you kill and the strength of mechanical units of yours that get killed as gold. You still have to be involved, but if you're slugging it out with another tank army, you profit no matter which side wins each battle.

 

[<Nexus>]

Here's another change that needs to be made. One of the side-effects of adjusting the Ancient and Classical Era was to remove a large chunk of the Ancient Era's Wonders. Including Shrines, the Ancient Era now has only 14 Wonders and the Classical Era has 32. (On a weighted average, the Ancient should have 19 and the Classical 18). I don't mind having the Ancient Era be low on Wonders. It is the era of survival and growth. What I do not like is the Classical Era being super-high, although there's less that can be done about it without more disruption than I would like. The Wonders that are in the Classical Era are historically built in that era, and the Wonders that are on the high-trick-count techs are either from BTS (so I don't want to get rid of them), too iconic to lose (Colosseum, Olympic Games, Terracotta Army), or the road-building wonders (Silk Road, Via Appia) that I don't want to lose because it makes Golden Spike stand out. I'd probably rate Kotoku-in as currently the most unnecessary wonder we have. Buddhism has another Wonder (Palace of Potala), Aesthetics has two other Wonders (Parthenon, Shwedagon Paya) and a trick count of 6.5, and the Classical Era has more Wonders than any other.

Don't count the religious wonders among the other wonders because they have a very special requirement - a state religion. Those wonders are not for everyone, not part of the competition.

 

[Vokarya]

Don't count the religious wonders among the other wonders because they have a very special requirement - a state religion. Those wonders are not for everyone, not part of the competition.

I count the religious wonders because they have the epic feel. (If I can't count Statue of Zeus, then it's going to feel very wrong.) Even if I exclude the religious wonders, the Classical still comes in at second place with 21 Wonders. (The Modern Era has 23, including World Projects.) The Classical has only 31 techs to the Modern Era's 40, so the Classical is 6 Wonders over average. It can still stand to give some up.

 

[Vokarya]

I've got all these fixed Wonder effects up and running. The last thing I think I should do is to clean up the religious wonders. Some of them have a lot of odd abilities smashed together and could use more focus. Temple of Heaven is probably the strangest. I don't mind a couple of effects, but this one seems really overpowered with so many abilities.

 

[wr3zzz]

Are changes in Magellan's Voyage already in mod? I just moved to ver1042 and not getting the 2XP global water unit boost anymore. I read through all the revision notes and found nothing. Civipedia special abilities still says 2XP but strategy says move rate boost instead. I am not getting the global movement boost either.

Thanks

 

[Vokarya]

Are changes in Magellan's Voyage already in mod? I just moved to ver1042 and not getting the 2XP global water unit boost anymore. I read through all the revision notes and found nothing. Civipedia special abilities still says 2XP but strategy says move rate boost instead. I am not getting the global movement boost either.

Thanks

Wonder changes are not uploaded yet. They are only instituted on my personal working copy.

Even in the current version, it's +2 XP for naval units in the building city only. XP for unit classes (like Stable) or domains (like Drydock) cannot be made global without adding new tags to the cde. I keep saying this, but the XML code that I can work with is very restrictive.

A lot of the Civilopedia text needs to be rewritten, but it's the last thing I want to do.

 

[wr3zzz]

Didn't realize class/domains XP boost in WW means for building city only, or that I just forgot and had to rely on Civilopedia In that case I am not sure the proposed changes are such a great trade off. Caraval would be available long before Magellan so coastal reveal is a pretty meaningless gift by that point.

Magellan+Trafalgar is not so overpowering especially with the new WW limit reduced. They are positioned in a tricky time period in terms of cultural accumulation so to stack them you need to reserve a WW free city for a very long time. The boost is much needed if you start in an island or a small continent because by the time of caravel you are usually way behind in tech races against the large continent and beeline to Magellan+Trafalgar might be the only way to keep the game going.

If you start in a large continent then having a strong navy is the last thing you care and if you can afford such luxury then the game has already been won. If you are in a smaller island/continent and lost the race to the navy combo then the game is pretty much lost anyway.

If possible I recommend keeping the naval combo but instead adjust AI to prioritize research and building the combo relative to start position, similar to the Sphinx/Pyramid pair. AI starting on isolated islands are just waste of CPU cycles by Middle Ages.

 

[Vokarya]

I'm pushing Caravels back to Compass so you don't have them exploring as early as they currently are. Magellan will also reveal EVERY unowned water tile and save time building extra ships. The circumnavigation bonus is easiest to get by just sending out two ships in opposite directions. But at the rate naval units move, it takes more time and ships to reveal the entire map.

I also don't really like having World Wonders that require combinations. World Wonders are supposed to have civilization-wide effects, while National Wonders have the effects limited to one city. There is one axis of competition. Cities compete for National Wonders, while civilizations compete for World Wonders.

The other thing that I haven't done yet is to look carefully at starting naval XP. I reined in land and air unit XP to prevent units starting with too many promotions from the get-go. I haven't done that for naval units yet. There isn't as much to look at, but I'm trying to reduce the number of factors involved because that leads to over-the-top totals.

 

[wr3zzz]

Restricting World Wonders to civilization wide effect only is definitely welcome. I have never been a fan for WW granting single city bonuses.

However, I do wish World Wonders boosting naval power to stay so starting on a small continent will still be: One, not a waste of time having to play through boredom until caravel to find out the game is already lost and Two, warmongering is not an automatic nonstarter.

 

[Vokarya]

Here is something else that sticks out to me. We have some National Wonders that require a certain number of ordinary buildings to build, and many others that do not. I think we should be more consistent about this.

I'm willing to exempt many NW from this criterion. Craft NW (that only produce resources), NW's with a World Project requirement, NW's with a unit-level requirement, NW's that can only be built in the capital, NW's that are only built by a Great Person, and the Kemetism NW's wouldn't care about building requirements.

What does everyone else think about this?

 

[Arakhor]

Could you name a couple that would not be exempt?

 

[Vokarya]

Everything on this list doesn't meet an exemption criteria and doesn't have a scaling building requirement. Mind Storage, National Epic, and Royal Tournament have single-building requirements but not the scaling building requirement that is my particular concern.

• Amusement Park
• Computer Center
• Courier System
• Crafts Guild Hall
• Deep Core Mine
• Flak Tower
• Foundling Hospital
• Hermitage
• House of Parliament
• Ironworks
• Labor Union
• Mind Storage
• Moai Statues
• Mt. Rushmore
• National Epic
• National Park
• National Redoubt
• National Weather Service
• Propaganda Net
• Royal Tournament
• Secret Army Base
• Servants Guild Hall
• Victuallers Guild Hall

 

[<Nexus>]

My opinion:

Civic buildings should not have more requirements.
For me Guild buildings are very similar to Kemetism NW buildings, so maybe they shouldn't have more requirements either.
Moai Statues should be reverted back to a WW.
Hermitage and Mt. Rushmore are also to specific names to be a NW for my taste. I would turn them into WWs.
National Epic may be too early to have a scaling building requirement, but not sure.
Royal Tournament maybe I would allow it to be built by medieval city states too. So I'd rather put no restrictions on it.
All the rest are okay for me to have some.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Here is something else that sticks out to me. We have some National Wonders that require a certain number of ordinary buildings to build, and many others that do not. I think we should be more consistent about this.

I'm willing to exempt many NW from this criterion. Craft NW (that only produce resources), NW's with a World Project requirement, NW's with a unit-level requirement, NW's that can only be built in the capital, NW's that are only built by a Great Person, and the Kemetism NW's wouldn't care about building requirements.

What does everyone else think about this?

So for example Centre for Disease Control would not require hospitals and research lab anymore? Same for Central Bank, National Mint, National Sports Leauge, Orbital Hotel, Oxford University, Radio Telescope, Red Cross, School of Law/Medicine, Summer Palace, Supercollider, Supreme Court, Wall Street.
I'm not sure. While for example I don't think you need X banks for National Mint, I think that requiring Spaceports for Orbital Hotel looks natural. I don't know anyway, I leave it up to you.

 

[Arakhor]

What would be the requirement for House of Parliament? Historically, it was Magna Carta and all, but you know...

 

[<Nexus>]

So for example Centre for Disease Control would not require hospitals and research lab anymore?

I think he meant it the other way: more NWs with scaled building requirements.

What would be the requirement for House of Parliament? Historically, it was Magna Carta and all, but you know...

Courthouse I guess... But I think it needs none.

 

[Vokarya]

I think he meant it the other way: more NWs with scaled building requirements.

That is what I mean. For example, I was thinking Flak Tower would require X Gun Turrets and Hermitage would require X Art Galleries. Most of the existing requirements have been scaled down by 1 from where they originally were. The default requirement was 4 in BTS, but is generally 3 in AND. So it's easier to build these in small empires, but I think you should have to have a reasonable-sized empire before you can look at building these NW.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

That is what I mean. For example, I was thinking Flak Tower would require X Gun Turrets and Hermitage would require X Art Galleries. Most of the existing requirements have been scaled down by 1 from where they originally were. The default requirement was 4 in BTS, but is generally 3 in AND. So it's easier to build these in small empires, but I think you should have to have a reasonable-sized empire before you can look at building these NW.

Then it's totally ok for me.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

All scaled to map size. There should be support for these national wonders.

World wonders are just that. Wondrous buildings/Events that are unique and create awe.

National wonders, are just a reflection of your domains abilities, and ability to support infrastructure.