Vokarya's Workshop: Wonders

[Vokarya]

What if it granted some promotion or XP to units? Maybe especially air and naval units?

I was thinking that would work as well. We don't have anything that really focuses on Air units except Willow Run, and I think Range I would work, coupled with increasing the science % from +15% to +25%. It would match up fairly well against Red Cross with the science bonus (less than Radio Telescope or Supercollider).

The other thing that I was slightly considering is a small bonus to Food in all cities (extra food from disaster preparedness).

 

[<Nexus>]

What if it granted some promotion or XP to units? Maybe especially air and naval units?

Oh, no, please. That's a non-military building.

Disabling some events as a side-effect is a very good idea.

I would change NWS this way:
+5% in all cities ("When is the best harvest time?")
+1 from Hotels and Vacation Resorts ("When should we go on holiday?")
+5%
cut the surplus specialist slots

 

[Rezca]

Oh, no, please. That's a non-military building.

Disabling some events as a side-effect is a very good idea.

I would change NWS this way:
+5% in all cities ("When is the best harvest time?")
+1 from Hotels and Vacation Resorts ("When should we go on holiday?")
+5%
cut the surplus specialist slots

Partially agree - but if EXP will be applied to it, I think it should be limited to aircraft.

I like the food bonuses idea, I thought about suggesting something like that as well but wasn't sure.... Since others have suggested it too maybe it's a good idea to consider?

 

[<Nexus>]

Oh, no, please. That's a non-military building.

Disabling some events as a side-effect is a very good idea.

I would change NWS this way:
+5% in all cities ("When is the best harvest time?")
+1 from Hotels and Vacation Resorts ("When should we go on holiday?")
+5%
cut the surplus specialist slots

I meant to write +5% in all cities, but giving it a second thought I think a +10 or 20% in its city would be just enough.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Looking at how importat weather forecast is for air power, I see nothing wrong with some experience for air units. Also food is a good idea. I would not choose science because there's already plenty of science sources pretty everywhere in the mod.

 

[GreedyManul]

ZN's idea is pretty good for repurposing NWS in a unique manner. Plus, 45*'s input's pretty good too, especailly the XP gain for air units. In the end, how does something like this sound?

+5% in all cities (best season for crops + disaster relief)
+1 from Hotels, Vacation Resorts, Airports (reliably enjoyable vacation days draws in more revenue, plus commercial operations would benefit from this)
+2 XP for Air units in all cities (military operations would also benefit immensely from forecasts)

It combines ZN's idea with 45*'s suggestion in a neat package, though the empire-wide XP gain would have to be bundled in a more roundabout way, unless someone's willing to add yet another XML tag in the DLL.

 

[<Nexus>]

+5% in all cities (best season for crops + disaster relief)
+1 from Hotels, Vacation Resorts, Airports (reliably enjoyable vacation days draws in more revenue, plus commercial operations would benefit from this)
+2 XP for Air units in all cities (military operations would also benefit immensely from forecasts)

I think that would be too much for a National Wonder.
A NW giving giving +1 for 2 buildings (Hotels/VRs) AND Airport... IMO that's too much.
Also: Remember that Vokarya is still working on the Xp curves. I doubt he wants to introduce new sources of Xp.

Looking at how importat weather forecast is for air power, I see nothing wrong with some experience for air units.

I understand that, but IMO its the duty of the Airport to take care of weather affects.
Would be better if all air units automatically could receive a free promotion: "Weather Safety" (or whatever) giving a +5% and +1 operation range.
I know some events can do something like that.

 

[Vokarya]

The XP curve for Air units is pretty much locked and I don't want to add new sources. It maxes out at 18 XP in the Industrial Era without Great Military Instructors, if you hit every possible source, including Pentagon, Brandenburg Gate, Ultimate Soldiers, and Intolerant. That's 4 promotions, but if you miss anything except Brandenburg, and most likely missing Intolerant, you're looking at 3 promotions. The Modern Era gets +2 XP from Secret Army Base and the Transhuman gets +2 XP from Aerospace Complex (over Military Airbase). At the Transhuman Era, every possible source gives 22 XP, enough for 5 promotions. So I don't want another source of XP for Air units. I thought Range I would be a good general promotion without being overly powerful. I do not to make any new promotions.

If we keep a Science bonus, it would be limited to the building city. I agree we don't need general science bonuses, but I think having the headquarters of a major organization would be worth a small amount. I'm thinking flat +8 beakers per turn instead of any % bonus.

 

[Vokarya]

Here's another thing about designing National Wonders. I do not think it is a good thing for a National Wonder to boost your entire civilization. If you look at the National Wonders in vanilla BTS, the only one that affects your entire civilization is Mt. Rushmore. Mt. Rushmore only appears after Jails and Police State are available, so its effect is not super-powerful.

I think the reason for this is that with National Wonders with civ-wide effects, there is much less strategic decision-making to make. With a building, you have to decide which cities will spend their production on that building. With a World Wonder, you have to decide whether to pursue the Wonder and risk losing your investment to another civilization. National Wonders do not have this problem. You can put a NW in a little city and it will still function at full capability. If there isn't any other big cost associated with the NW, then that is not something to encourage.

We actually have about 20 of these civ-spanning National Wonders. Some of them have additional costs that make them less of a no-decision to build. National Anthem requires you to spend a Great Artist, Federal Reserve/Foundling Hospital/Supreme Court require certain civics, Fusion Power Plant and World Bank require World Projects to be built first, Labor Union imposes additional maintenance, and Propaganda Net decreases Culture production. But in general, this is not something I would like to encourage.

 

[<Nexus>]

I partly agree, but wouldn't like to see a "change from civ-effect to city-only-effect" an each and every NW. In some cases a civ wide effect is necessary.

 

[Vokarya]

There are some National Wonders where the concept doesn't work unless the effect is civ-wide. Courier System is probably the earliest example.

One NW that I don't think should be global is the Treasury. Currently it gives +10% gold to its building city and +10% gold all cities. I think this is pretty strong when it shows up, since it only requires Currency. I think it should be a flat +25% gold to the building city, which has to be your capital. This makes it an early version of Central Bank/Wall Street.

 

[Vokarya]

Also, I would like to move the National Weather Service to Radar and have it count Radar Stations. I think the NWS can go just about anywhere in the late Industrial to early Modern Eras, and Radar has one of the lowest trick counts with 3 (Radar Station, Radio Telescope, Sentry II/Sonar promotions). Flight has 4.5 without the NWS (Airfield, Flak Tower, Biplane, Airship, Interception I promo) so it can spare a trick.

 

[Vokarya]

Here are the last of the National Wonders.

National Epic: I think this should require X Libraries rather than just 1 Library, just to be consistent.

National Park: Counts City Parks. We discussed this already.

National Redoubt: Counts Bunkers. I'd like Bunkers to get a bit more reason to build them.

Propaganda Net: Counts Advertising Agencies. This gives you the widest possible window (until Androids). Broadcast Towers disappear at Fiber Optics when they are replaced by Communications Towers. Press Agencies disappear at Mass Media when they are replaced by TV Stations. So I think Ad Agency is the best choice.

Royal Tournament: Requires X Knight's Stables instead of just one. This is fairly easy and will put a little extra pressure to build Knight's Stables.

Secret Army Base: Counts Military Bases. I think this one is fairly obvious.

Anything I didn't cover here doesn't need any additional requirements.

 

[Asbestosstar]

How do you code a wonder?

 

[GreedyManul]

How do you code a wonder?

You take a building XML template and fill in the blanks.

 

[Vokarya]

Some of it depends on what you want the Wonder to do. You have to edit at least 4 files to add a new Wonder:

• CIV4BuildingClassInfos establishes the Wonder status of the new building. (Almost always, BuildingClass is used to refer to a given building instead of just Building to account for UB's.)
• CIV4BuildingInfos establishes the statistics of the Wonder.
• CIV4ArtDefines_Building contains the icon and any building graphics. (You can get away without a building graphic, but you have to have an icon.)
  
• CIV4GameText contains the in-game name, strategy and Civilopedia entries.

That's the minimum. If you want the Wonder as a module, you will need a copy of the Schema files as well and you need to edit MLF_CIV4ModularLoadingControls.xml to make the mod aware of your module. If you want a Wonder movie, that requires editing CIV4MovieInfos to add the movie. Some of the more unusual effects require Python code, which is a whole separate level.

 

[nionios]

It's a bit irrelevant to the current discussion, but what if we remove the -10% culture from Propaganda Net?
Negative bonus for wonders doesn't sound very reasonable INMO.

 

[Vokarya]

It's a bit irrelevant to the current discussion, but what if we remove the -10% culture from Propaganda Net?
Negative bonus for wonders doesn't sound very reasonable INMO.

It's designed to make you think twice about building it unless you really need the bonuses. The usual opportunity cost for a National Wonder is "It only affects one city, and I built it HERE, so I can't build it over THERE." Propaganda Net and other NW with a global effect don't have that cost. So I think a slight downside in these cases is appropriate.

 

[Vokarya]

I still want to reconfigure the various religious Wonders. I feel many of them share too many effects and don't have a properly coordinated theme to them.

For example, King Richard's Crusade does the following:

• +25% production
• +50% Great General emergence
• +1 gold from all Christian buildings
  
• Generates Crusader units every few turns

I really like the Crusader units. It's a unique ability. The Crusaders are quite strong but I feel they are balanced by not getting any XP to start and so have to go up against tough fortified units with promotions. The production bonus and Great General emergence are problematic. I would like to replace both of these abilities with +50% military production. This lets you build an army out of its city, but doesn't do anything for creating buildings in a city.

 

[<Nexus>]

I still want to reconfigure the various religious Wonders. I feel many of them share too many effects and don't have a properly coordinated theme to them.

For example, King Richard's Crusade does the following:

• +25% production
• +50% Great General emergence
• +1 gold from all Christian buildings
  
• Generates Crusader units every few turns

I really like the Crusader units. It's a unique ability. The Crusaders are quite strong but I feel they are balanced by not getting any XP to start and so have to go up against tough fortified units with promotions. The production bonus and Great General emergence are problematic. I would like to replace both of these abilities with +50% military production. This lets you build an army out of its city, but doesn't do anything for creating buildings in a city.

Being such a war oriented wonder I could still accept a smaller +10% Great General emergence.