W/ Financial and W/o Financial?

[Matthew5117]

Not sure if this is the right place, moderators, move it if it isn't the right one...

Anyways, I was wondering if someone could use a game for an example and make a comparison of commerce values in total.

In other words, you take the game (that has a leader that uses the financial trait) and find your commerce value, and then take away your financial trait and see the difference.

Or am I mistaken and there is a mathematical formula for this (like divide by 90% and you'll find your answer)?

 

[Kesshi]

Matthew5117,

I play very differently if I play Financial or non Financial. For example, I won't value low food yielding coastal cities as much if I'm not playing as Financial. Also, if I'm not Financial, I'll start dropping down cottages later, where as if I am Financial, virtually all Riverside tiles become Cottages really quick. Again, if I'm Financial, typically I'll avoid playing a heavy SE game, where as if I'm not Financial, I lean towards an early SE. You can't draw exact parallels. Even more so the way to tell how much commerce you're losing out on would be to count the number of 2+ commerce tiles you're working, and that's how much commerce you're missing out on.

Edit: Even that's misleading. For example, if you didn't have Financial but instead I had Organized, you'd have to calculate a whole lot more. The Financial trait seems nice, but it is very overvalued, in my opinion. Then again I prefer to manage huge empires running wacky civics where Organized seems to really shine.

 

[Matthew5117]

That's not what I meant, if it wasn't clear, then sorry for the misunderstanding.

However, what I was trying to say is get a game where your leader has the financial trait, find your commerce value and then take away the financial trait, and see the new commerce value.

Basically, what I want to achieve is see the overall difference the financial trait does (that one plus commerce).

 

[Kesshi]

Matthew5117,

The only way to do that is to count.

 

[Matthew5117]

COUNT!?! NO!!!!

I swear I won't do that!...
No other way to do it?

*sigh*

Maybe when I have time... :suicide:

 

[SnowlyWhite]

frankly... count

but it's hardly relevant; the % varies with period obviously. and with civics - fs will see a smaller increase in the % for instance then dunno... nationhood for the same empire.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Or am I mistaken and there is a mathematical formula for this (like divide by 90% and you'll find your answer)?

BaseCommerce( Financial ) - BaseCommerce(Not Financial) = Population.

In practice, that's a bit high - not every pop point is working a 2C tile; I'd guess 75% of population.

If you wanted to know, the long answer might be "Play England until you get to an interesting point in the game. Measure Commerce Save the game as a world builder scenario. Replace the Leader. Reload. Measure Commerce. Do Math. Report Result (optional)."

 

[Kesshi]

Matthew5117,

You could always count backwards.

First, add up the population of cities you have.
Second, count the tiles you're working that have 1 or 0 commerce.
The difference between the two is how much commerce Financial is granting you a bonus.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's pretty significant...possibly more so because it actively changes how one plays, or at least how I do. Cities payoff sooner if cottaged and you can afford more of them should you get a floodplain or other commerce opening. It's not something that should be measured at a fixed point in time late in the game to see how useful it is...

Edit: This is true for PHI too. PHI opens up some otherwise awkward bulbs in a timely fashion, not to mention it nets you oxford a lot earlier than normal and a HUGE hammer reduction on unis in many cities. The GPP bonus seems very short term but the effects may not be. I feel people underestimate expansive in similar fashion as well...it speeds up expansion just as fast as IMP if not more so, IMO.

 

[Gliese 581]

I did a count a while back but I have no idea how to find it. It was a 4 continent hemispheres map with 8 civs, 2 for each.
I played as Willem and conquered my continent. I looked sometime at the start of the space race and I think I had about 20 cities and around 1.6-2k commerce after modifiers. The financial trait was approximately worth 200 of these (200/0 100/100 and 0/200 at 100, 50 and 0% slider) so 10-15%.

However that is a benefit instanced in time, it does not account for the snowball effect all throughout the game from getting techs earlier or support faster expansion and the consequences of that and the consequences of those consequences.. so you can't just subtract this value to get an effect, it's larger.

 

[JTMacc99]

Also, if you wait until around the time of electricity to count, there will be dozens of decisions you've made during the course of the game that were affected by the fact you have the financial trait. If I'm playing a game as Hannibal, I've probably built a few extra libraries and markets in cities that I would have otherwise just left as pure production cities. Similarly, I'm much more likely to have settled many of my cities as hybrid cities with cottages, and enough farms to work the mines. When I'm not financial, I am (trying to be) more careful with the way I specialize my cities.

 

[Matthew5117]

OK... I don't think I want to do this.

Maybe someone else could?

 

[oyzar]

It depends on the individual game...

 

[Matthew5117]

Yeah, maybe 100 volunteers could contribute their differences and then we'll average it!

Sorry if that was rude...

I am just curious what that difference is. I would think that one commerce extra wouldn't be a lot, but it happens to be so.

 

[Matthew5117]

Whoops! Double Post.

Delete! Delete!

 

[Jerrymander]

It's easy. I think you can save a game as X Financial leader, then edit the XML to remove the Financial trait from X. Then, you can put a slider at 100% and then to 0%, subtracting 100% amount by the 0% amount from each run. Unless you're running Bureaucracy, you'll have your difference.

Edit: Nevermind, there are other % modifiers (Libraries, etc) so you'll only get a percentage.


I have a 1959 save. Willem.
With Financial, I can produce 2463 Culture points purely from commerce (x(100%)-x(0%)=Ans).
Without, I can produce 2463 Culture...? Interestingly enough, removing Financial from Willem in the XML did to change the yields of the tiles. I force ended the turn, and the yields did not change.

Sorry. It makes logical sense, but apparently the yields are hardcoded and not dependent on the traits.

 

[Roxlimn]

When you start the game, before your Cottages mature into hamlets, having the Financial trait boosts your 2 commerce tiles into 3 - for a 50% increase in commerce. Throughout the initial game, when your maintenance increasingly eats up a larger portion of your commerce pie, the bonus ranges from +50% to +33% on a per tile basis, but usually about +40-+50% in terms of tech benefits. Sometimes, it's as high as +75% to +100% in teching if you're working a lot of tiles and have low maintenance.

 

[Gliese 581]

Roxlimn: It can never go beyond +50% for your empire (or 33% total), only approach it as there's the palace commerce even if you only work tiles that would ordinarily give 2 commerce but give 3 instead bc of the trait, and you don't connect cities for trade routes.

 

[Roxlimn]

For teching purposes.

It never goes above +50%. Usually, it's far less, but since an increasingly larger part of your commerce is taken up by maintenance as you expand in the initial phases of the game, the amount Financial adds to your tech rate becomes relatively larger.

If your base tech rate would be 20% of 80 commerce and Financial allows you to increase that to 30% of 92, your beaker production has increased from 16 BPT to 27 BPT.