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Want to design a scenario, I have questions.

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Scenario Creation' started by Konig15, Jul 31, 2016.

  1. Konig15

    Konig15 Chieftain

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    Hi! I've been playing a lot of Civ 2 while I've been listening to audiobooks, and I want to design my own scenario. I want to build a Fallout scenario, set maybe 2270 or thereabouts.

    1. I'm very new at this, so should I try and build this as one map in Civ 2 MGE or as two maps in Test of Time (Above Ground and Underground, for dungeons and such). I recognize this has a tradeoff, in that airbases don't provide the Civ 2 bonus. Is there also a difference in terms of how many events each version can support?

    2. Generally, how many events can a scenario support before you have to start dividing them? I want many, many events, with unique units that represents the various DLC or important places (like the Institute northwest of Boston if I go for the one map)

    3. I was thinking of putting non-moving barbarian "raider" units on every tile save a few by the starting civs or goodie huts (which will be renamed settlements). I'd have three or four versions of Raiders, each with a different event, some where the raiders don't fight, and you get nothing, or some where they retreat after fighting or others which turn out to be a raider base and you get money for destroying those. This way you get the feeling pacification by search and destroy Is this a good idea or bad idea?

    4. Is there a way to prevent the global warming countdown with pollution? Because if possible, I'd like to have pollution everywhere and the player's job would be to clean it up. If necessary, if there's a manual workaround, I'd want to include it in the scenario's readme.

    5. Are there any particular unit slots barbarians gravitate towards? Cause I can save those for Supermutants and mobile raiders and such.

    6. Is there a US/North America gigamap I could use? The best one I've found is USA2013, but I'm always on the lookout for a bigger map.

    Thank you for your time.
     
  2. Metro Polis

    Metro Polis Chieftain

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    Has anyone here got a trick up this sleeve on how to make barbarian units staying permanently on the map in MGE without disappearing after a few rounds? Because I don't want to waste an entire civilization on a neutral civ just in order to block a road. And yeah, I know TOTPP can fix that, but I wonder if someone has a hint for MGE, because it's simply my all-time favourite.

    And has anybody here got a list of which tech triggers which barbarian unit?
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  3. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Chieftain Supporter

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    Not positive this will work, but try putting the barb unit in a fortress.

    I think this will help you.

    http://sleague.civfanatics.com/index.php?title=The_Barbarian_Paper
     
  4. Metro Polis

    Metro Polis Chieftain

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    That seems to work. And what I actually didn't know: Barbarians created by events tend to stay on the map forever, too. So it's better to have them created in turn 1 by event and not while designing the scenario.
     
  5. Metro Polis

    Metro Polis Chieftain

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    We're halfway through with the HOMM 2 mod and I would like to convert it to TOT afterwards. Does anybody know if the barbarian units in TOT are triggered by the same techs as in MGE? Or are there some significant dissimilarities I have to take care of?

    I don't have that much experience with TOT, barely touched it. I could need some advice on how to handle that one.
     
  6. Thorvald of Lym

    Thorvald of Lym A Little Sketchy

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    As far as I know all the base mechanics are identical between both versions, so a straight port should basically work, although the Icons and City files rearrange things and will need to be manually tweaked. Otherwise the only things you'll need to add are the new parameters in the various .txts.


    And in the event Konig15 returns:
    I believe ToT has a larger memory cap. It's not the number of individual events that determines the limit, but the overall memory requirement of the file in full.

    The Test of Time Patch Project introduces LUA scripting as a substitute for the built-in language, which in addition to being incomparably more flexible, I think does all its calculations in real-time so it's not beholden to a fixed memory cap.

    I've seen several scenarios that use static units as tripwires for Events (exploration in Jules Verne, resource cores in Star Wars: Insurrection that give the attacker money). One potential hiccup is knowing which barb does what spoils the surprise, though using LUA it's theoretically possible to randomize the outcome across all the types.

    I know you can fiddle with the tech tree to reduce city pollution output but I don't think there's a way to edit the on-map risk. What you can do using TOTPP is create new terrain representing "polluted" variants, and "clean" that up through terraforming.

    As per the link above. Basically, the barbarians draw from the Horsemen, Chariots, Archers, Legions, Elephants, Knights, Crusaders, Musketeers, Cannon, Dragoons, Riflemen, Cavalry, Artillery, Fanatics, Partisans, Trireme, Caravel, and Frigate slots, with what spawns where, when and why controlled by specific technologies, although there's no class restriction on event-generated barbs.
     
  7. Metro Polis

    Metro Polis Chieftain

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    Some weird stuff occurs while testing MGE. After the very first round on a random map half of the civs disappear without even building cities. The settler units are simply gone. Furthermore those few civs that build a city can't build their first unit (except the next settler). That's pretty s****y.

    The only techs that are necessary and distributed from the very beginning to all civs are Navigation, Mobile Warfare, Tactics and Guerilla, just to have an impact on the barbarian troops.

    Gunfire and Chivalry were omit because they make the older troops obsolete no matter which tech you've got. And for the city style it's Industrialization, Electronics and Automobile two of the civ have got.

    Any ideas? This is really a setback. I'm using MGE 5.4.0f
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
  8. Metro Polis

    Metro Polis Chieftain

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    Update: It seems like all the civs that move a step at the very beginning and don't settle right away, vanish! Unless controlled by a human player. WTF?!
     
  9. Metro Polis

    Metro Polis Chieftain

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    Ah, I sorted it out myself. The tech penalty at a start in 4000BC is so grave that it seems to let civs go mad and kill themselves rather then cope with that challenge! I reduced the techs to the utmost custom units limit.
     
  10. Metro Polis

    Metro Polis Chieftain

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    Ah, it still gives me headaches. Those suckers who make the first move simpy vanish into nothingness and I can't tell why. I have to move on from 4000BC to 3900BC until everyone settled and I can give everyone their scenario techs. No big deal, but it sucks nevertheless.

    If someone encountered the same problem or knows why this happens... well, tell me, please.
     
  11. Buck2005

    Buck2005 Chieftain

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    One of the possible reasons why civilizations "suicide" at the beginning of the game - your map does not contain the squares of grassland and plains (or you edited the food production indicators of these squares in a smaller direction). AI civ2 is programmed to build cities primarily on these squares. To avoid suicide in the first move of the game, before starting, place the settlers of all AI civilizations on the squares of the grassland (1 square will be enough for each AI civilization). When you load the game, already in scenario creation mode, edit the grassland squares back into the landscape you need.
     
  12. Metro Polis

    Metro Polis Chieftain

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    Well, the game starts on a random map (because I want the scenario to really start there - almost more a mod than a scenario) and I haven't changed anything important about the values of the terrains (only grassland and plains giving 1 one more trade - but it was the same odd flaw with the original values). It really depends on the distribution of the techs (which are nothing special, 7 user techs plus Industrialization and Automobile). If I distribute these techs before a civ settles down, it's game over for those who want to make a move instead of settling right away. In a test strangely one of the civs didn't disappear and just moved around for a few turns and then just gave up and sat there not moving for several more. So weird!!!

    Everything goes fine if I wait 2 turns (until 3900BC) for everyone to settle and distribute the techs then. So it has to do with the techs, but I simply can't imagine why.

    They vanish only if I distribute the scenario techs right at the beginning. I don't know why and it isn't always the same civ that disappears (which maybe would make sense with the techs).

    Here's a scenario in which 2 civs simply disappear if not choosen by a human player (it's the Sorcerer who starts on grassland and the Neutral starting on plains). Furthermore they disappear right away from the scenario start if you don't choose them. This flaw hasn't got to do anything with turn-taking either - they simply perish like they've never been there at all.

    Here's such a scenario (but it was the same with a simple savegame right before turned into this scenario) and the rules and city file. No gifs however, those will follow when everything is set and done. But everyone starts with a normal settler unit (for it's the start of a random game, the unique settlers appear only when constructing them in cities).

    You can test it yourself: simply start a new random game using that rules file, give everyone the non-techs right away (except its own) plus for one the Necro syle city and another one the warlock city and see s**t happen the very next round. This sucks, man!
     

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    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  13. Buck2005

    Buck2005 Chieftain

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    I do not know what the specific problem with your scenario. Several civilizations do suicide at the start of the game, as you described.
    However, I made a simple test: I started a new game on a new map. Then, I saved this game in your scenario folder, and opened it from there. Then I created a new scenario in the same folder (ca_b4000.scn). When you run this new scenario, the game works correctly. All civilizations remain in the game (I checked several moves in the "no human player" mode). The rules of your mod are executed correctly, as far as I understand.

    Try using this method.
     

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  14. Metro Polis

    Metro Polis Chieftain

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    Well, I repeated this process several times before and civs seem to kill themselves very randomly. In some cases 3 or even 4 get lost, in some only 1 or 2 and somtimes - if you're lucky - none. I couldn't see any pattern behind these actions and that's very frustrating. So maybe you were just lucky, I'll have a look into that. Strangely enough you don't even have to save it as a scenario to have that flaws after distributing the techs in the very first turn.

    EDIT: Yep, it's still the same problem.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  15. Buck2005

    Buck2005 Chieftain

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    Once again I checked the game for 3 different nations, everything works fine. All nations in the game. Moreover, during one of the tests during the war one of the nations destroyed the other. And the destroyed nation was resurrected in another place, as it should be in the civ2 gameplay. I did all three tests in the "without a human player" mode (the AI played with itself, I just pressed the inter). There was no suicide.

    Maybe it's in your version of the game? I use this one: https://gamesnostalgia.com/en/game/sid-meiers-civilization-ii


    I can also advise you to carefully check the technological tree of your mod. I know cases of illogical and strange behavior of AI in the case where your technology tree may contain errors. For example, recursion: looping a tree, when the same technology is required to open a technology. Or other errors. They may well cause your script to crash.
     
  16. Metro Polis

    Metro Polis Chieftain

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    Thanks for your checking, I appreciate that. I'll have a try with the version in the link provided. I'll check the tech tree thoroughly and see if I can find some bug in there. Funny thing is, if I don't distribute the techs, that flaw doesn't appear, but it's the same tech tree.

    I've done similar kinds of scenarios several times in the past, that's why I am so frustrated. But if it works for you, it should work for me,too - hopefully. If not, I have to give TOT a try at least, I guess.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  17. Metro Polis

    Metro Polis Chieftain

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    I've just tested the version in the link with my rules file. It doesn't work out.
    Here's again the savegame and the rules file of my very first run, so you can see yourself - but I guess you already did that before. You don't even need to save it as a scenario to get that odd effect. If I play a civ or act as a non-human supervisor is irrelevant.

    test.sav - In this savegame the techs needed are already given to the proper civ and some of them drop out of the game
    testzerotech - The techs are not distibuted here and the civs remain in the game
     

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  18. Metro Polis

    Metro Polis Chieftain

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    Oh boy, another one: when I start a saved scenario (had to wait until 3800BC for all to settle down and gave them their proper techs sth. really strange happens!

    I turned the given techs to a "no, no" status before saving the scenario, and did the testing. If you start the scenario and do some tech rush via cheat menu every turn everything goes fine until the end of the tech tree which clearly ends in the Future Tech. But if I give a civ all techs right away they can't build their unique units any more, even though the tech that ends them isn't in the tech tree any more and also doesn't appear in the list of available techs.

    Haha, that way it gets from bad to worse it seems (or you could say this is a sophisticated anti-cheater mod!). TOT 1.1 is an a*****e, too, because there isn't any event editor in the menu unlike MGE. If I write events manually into the events.txt file, they don't work. They work only if I design them with the events editor in MGE, then copy them into TOT. WTF again and again and again! HaHa, this is so ridiculous! Maybe I'll simply give up, I never thought I would hear myself saying that Civ2 is complete crap and f*****g its last hardcore fans so hard.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  19. Metro Polis

    Metro Polis Chieftain

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    Finally! Breakthrough! That hocuspocus is still there, but the events file finally killed it. The only thing there is to do is simply wait until 3900BC before saving it as a scenario. No need to distribute the techs manually any more, the events files does that now for every scenario automatically every turn (just for the case a civ gets eradicated and starts anew - all three same coloured civs have got the same names, too). I don't know what went wrong with MGE here, but I'm satisfied it eventually works. Well, I know I have to wait two rounds before saving the random scenario, but that's acceptable.

    I didn't even know you could distribute 'no' techs by event in MGE, thought that was only possible in TOT and thus I grew desperate with distributing techs in the savegame by the scenario editor. But I was completely wrong, the events editor handles that much better. Funny I never noticed that. This way a random scenario in MGE is just an easy lay. Puh! But it took me a quater of century to realize that. :rolleyes:
     
  20. Buck2005

    Buck2005 Chieftain

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    I'm glad you managed to get your scenario working. It is strange that for this it is necessary to do such manipulations with the "events" file. As another version, I can assume that you may be using the RULES file and other files related to your script in the root directory of the civ2 files (replacing the original files). Perhaps this is a fatal error, as the scenario files may conflict with unedited (or edited with an error) game files. For example, the name of each nation in the RULES file must correspond exactly (up to each character) to the name of this nation in the CITY file. Or other similar errors. To avoid these errors (and ease of correction), it is best to keep all your scenario files in a separate folder, and never mix them with the original game files. Although perhaps of course you probably do this, then the strange suicide of nations at the beginning of the game has no explanation. Especially since everything works fine for me (with the exception of your original HOMM2.scn scenario file, which really starts suicide of several nations).

    As for your negative about the game civ2, I can say the following. In my opinion, civ2 is a great game, no worse and no better than other versions of the Civilization, with its pronounced characteristics, many of which unfortunately are not in the later versions. It has a lot of flaws, bugs, inconveniences of the interface and so on. In her defense, I can say that all subsequent versions, although they eliminate the obvious shortcomings of civ2, but give birth to their new ones. And it is very difficult to judge how the elimination of civ2 flaws outweighs the appearance of new bugs. Each player decides for himself which version is more to his liking. In addition, some fundamental flaws (for example, the central "zero" square of the city, for an unknown reason, also giving products, and other similar) are present in all versions of the game.

    I hope you manage to make your scenario work according to your desires, and your script will find its audience. However,I cannot give you motivation, because I personally am skeptical about the idea of creating scenarios. In my opinion, an attempt to make a different game from Civilization (for example, in the next branch, guys for some reason transfer Heroes to the civ2 platform, or even more so when they try to create a pseudo-historical wargame like Panzer General and Total War on the civ2 platform that is not well adapted for this purpose) - a very strange, and even absurd attempt. However, this is just my personal opinion, I do not impose it on anyone. And I hope that the labor spent on the creation of these modes will not be in vain.

    Also, if you are interested in creating a truly complex scenario, I recommend trying the TOTPP platform for you. It really removes some (in my opinion, unimportant) flaws of MGE. Given that there is no difference in the gameplay of TOT and MGE, even the removal of minor MGE bugs is a positive development. But, of course, one cannot expect some panacea from TOTPP. For example, in TOTPP a blurred graphic background migrated from the original TOT, which degrades the clarity of the landscape image. On the other hand, the graphic clarity of unit images in TOTPP is definitely better than MGE. I use both versions, TOTPP and MGE, and I cannot say that one of them is much better. It all depends on what you prefer in the game.
     

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