I don't understand war weariness and democracy. I've only been at war with the Aztecs for 7 turns, I've got loads of police stations, Universal Sufferage, plenty of luxuries, and yet my civilization is collapsing into anarchy! I don't get it. I've looked at some of the articles posted here and they suggest that when war weariness gets too bad, democracies collapse, but 7 turns seems a bit quick. Can anyone explain this? And how can I avoid it without changing governments? The culture loss would be pretty critical at this point in the game. Thanks.
War and Democracy = Anarchy after 7 turns?
- Thread starter Stav
- Start date
microbe said:
Well, I deliberately waited the 20 turns of peace before joining a MPP that I knew would trigger the war, so I thought I was in the clear.
I did read the article, and I'm not entirely clear on the mechanics. In my particular case, I had mech. infs that were fortified with a civil defense. The Aztecs threw literally dozens of cavalry and infantry at them, I also wiped out a bunch of their units on my turns. So simply by wiping out a bunch of infantry, I got a huge war weariness score? Is this correct? I have only taken 2 cities, I've mostly been on the defensive.
wilbill
That Old Time Religion
The mechanics are pretty simple - just add up the WW points for any of the actions described. They accumulate from turn to turn. As far as your fortified MI's,
If the Aztecs threw dozens of units at them that's 2 x dozens of WW points.
On the other hand, if you take the war to them it's 1 WW point/turn that you're in their territory.
At least that's how I understand Oystein's article and it seems to work that way for me.
If the Aztecs threw dozens of units at them that's 2 x dozens of WW points.
On the other hand, if you take the war to them it's 1 WW point/turn that you're in their territory.
At least that's how I understand Oystein's article and it seems to work that way for me.
edwardsobel
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2004
- Messages
- 1
Well its similar for me I never had war and was trucking along fat and happy in my democracy (never been to war with anyone yet.
then in comes my neighbor and declares war on me (unprovoked)
I fend off his attacks and make no counter attacks (don't have the troops in position yet. then next turn wham all cities are in civil disorder. we are talking like 12 happy citizens and no content or unhappy to nearly all unhappy.
I moved my slider to luxuries at abot 40% but no good I needed about 3 entertainers in each city just to come out of civil disorder but now I am suffering from food shortage.
Finally decided that democracy is terrible seems the AI knows you are a democracy and then goes for war to drive you out via anarchy. I go republic or fascism only now
then in comes my neighbor and declares war on me (unprovoked)
I fend off his attacks and make no counter attacks (don't have the troops in position yet. then next turn wham all cities are in civil disorder. we are talking like 12 happy citizens and no content or unhappy to nearly all unhappy.
I moved my slider to luxuries at abot 40% but no good I needed about 3 entertainers in each city just to come out of civil disorder but now I am suffering from food shortage.
Finally decided that democracy is terrible seems the AI knows you are a democracy and then goes for war to drive you out via anarchy. I go republic or fascism only now
wilbill said:
So does that count either way? In other words, if the Aztecs attack my MI, that 2 WWP for me. If on my turn, I attack the unit that attacked me, that's another 2 WWP for me.
If that's the case, I guess it is no surprise it happened in only 7 turns. I definitely killed a lot of the Aztecs' units, and they attacked me quite a bit.
bingen
Prince
When you attack you get the points only if you lose.Stav said:
The AIs do not target you specifically because you are in a Democracy. However, all Government types not named Republic suck if you are a non-religious civ.
majk-iii
Eeh?
No... whats important is that u entered a MPP... that means YOU declared war. Not the aztecs, but you. Had they declared (maybe by u tossing them off your area) you would have gotten reversed WW.... that means massive happiness.
majk-iii
Eeh?
edwardsobel ... you should have counterattacked... your people wants revenge.
wilbill
That Old Time Religion
Moonsinger has a good article in the War Academy on waging war under democratic government..
I've waged wars with Democracy (8 luxuries and US) and I've had no Anarchy whatsoever for 40 consecutive turns. I think Moonsinger has a good article on that, but you mention you've read them all. I guess it's a matter of practise. Anyway, IMHO there's just no need for Democracy, Republic is far better.
(EDIT: OOOPS, SORRY WILBILL HADN'T SEEN YOUR POST
)
(EDIT: OOOPS, SORRY WILBILL HADN'T SEEN YOUR POST
)
wilbill
That Old Time Religion
No problem. And, yes, if you're planning to conduct frequent or long-lasting wars, Republic's probably a much better choice. I've fought some long, drawn out wars under Democracy, but it requires constant attention.Drakan said:Anyway, IMHO there's just no need for Democracy, Republic is far better.
(EDIT: OOOPS, SORRY WILBILL HADN'T SEEN YOUR POST
Well, I'd never had a problem with war weariness under a democracy until now. Although I usually don't warmonger as much as I am doing this time around. Perhaps that's the difference; in prior games, I never declare war on anybody, I always get them to declare war on me. This time, I did the declaring, which is unusual for my style of play. Thanks for the info.
Hmm. Just for fun, I downloaded that multitool. I looked at the war weariness points in my recent saved games and for the last 5 turns I have more than 500 wwp! I thought at >90 wwp I would experience the anarchy? Instead, it seems like it doesn't happen until >500 wwp. Is that because of some normalization factor, i.e. the total wwp/ the number of civs? That might make sense since there are only 5 other civs out there...
citizen001
Banned
I didn't know you could get anarchy from war weariness! i thought it was only from all your cities being in civil disorder.
onedreamer
Dragon
bingen said:
erhm... what levels do you play ? I play demigod and I avoid Republic as much as I can. Only Feudalism and Fascism could be worse than Republic in my experiences.
punkbass2000
Des An artiste
I think most people consider REpublic to be the overall best government, even (or especially) at higher levels, but it's obviously not set in stone. Playstyle, circumstance, etc all have their roles. You can probably find one of the 'Republic vs. Monarchy' threads easily enough.
I like being in Monarchy, then switching to Communism if my game situation dictates a war-mongering strategy. No war weariness is a great plus to have. In a mostly peaceful game situation, I too like the benefits of Republic.
I have a question about Republic. Is it better to use Feudalism during peace-time when your land area is under 35% to maximize production benefits? I've read posts saying that Republic is best when you have a very large civ area (over 40%). On a couple of games when switching to Republic & only occupying approx 25% of the land, I had to lower my research rate to maintain a positive gpt flow.
All opinions appreciated.
I have a question about Republic. Is it better to use Feudalism during peace-time when your land area is under 35% to maximize production benefits? I've read posts saying that Republic is best when you have a very large civ area (over 40%). On a couple of games when switching to Republic & only occupying approx 25% of the land, I had to lower my research rate to maintain a positive gpt flow.
All opinions appreciated.
punkbass2000
Des An artiste
When to choose Feudalism over Republic is usually if you're planning to be at war a bit more and have lots of towns, and Republic when you have at least a few cities with markets and a couple luxuries. Monarchy is the choice if you plan to fight a lot and have a few cities. There's a lot of factors involved, I would generally count my towns/cities and compare them to each government and how developed my empire is (which is usually very much so, making Republic even more valuable, as you can't get a lot of extra trade with out a lot of roads).
