Warehouse overflow.

Ziggy Stardust

Ziggy Stardust

Absolutely Sane
Joined
Nov 23, 2005
Messages
27,677
Location
High above the ice
Hi there,

I was wondering whether the automatic selling of your goods when the warehouse overflows is also subject to the kings taxes? I'm guessing it is otherwise you'd have a great way to avoid them plus the bonus of not needing to ship those goods all the way to Europe. but I can't find conformation about it though. Just want to make sure.

I never even tried it because I'm rather anal in resource management. Don't want any red numbers in my resource screen thank you very much. But if it does evade taxes ... bit of an exploit.

edit: While I'm here. A friend of mine has a problem he can't start for independance since his "start revolution" button is gone. It's there in earlier saves, but now ... it's gone.

edit: So I'm guessing by the lack of responses after 40 views I asked a really dumb question or one that has been answered a million times already.

I did search for "warehouse overflow" before I posted though.
 
i don't know either, i think it doesn't.

easy way to check though is to compare the price, you're supposed to get 50% of the market value, if its 50% of the listed price in europe it is, otherwise it isn't.

I think there should be a higher level of warehouse as well.
 
is your friend sure the rebel sentiment meter is over 50? getting more immigrants or population growth can push the number down. It will change things if the meter is too close to 50.

If its at least 50, and no war has started, and no button is there, then bug.
 
When the warehouse overflows you only get half of what you would normally sell it for in Europe. It's already like you're being taxed at 50%. I'm not positive but I don't think King's taxes are charged as well.
 
Ah, thanks for clearing that up. :)

About the "start revolution" button, he said he was at 80+%. I know he reloaded the old save and keep an eye on the button to figure out if he could find out what happened. But I haven't talked to him about it.
 
How about, can the warehouse overflow be sold even, if the king has set a boycott to the overflowing resource ?
 
Ricci said:
If anyone is interested, there is an extensive debate about the warehouse matter in snoopy/dale's mod thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=293257

Also, I have started a thread about smuggling in C4C, with very little response I must say, which you can find in here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=296560
Click to expand...


I have noticed that, and in fact the issue concerning handling of warehouse overflow of blocked goods started to bother me, when I was reading that thread. The remark stating that the warehouse overflow is not intended to represent smuggling seemed to indicate that the warehouse overflow could not be sold, but I did not find any definite information about that. Therefore I asked about it in a thread dedicated to warehouse overflow.
 
I don't think overflow is taxed. It takes a 50% cut. So when taxes go above 50% I figure: Stop running wagon trains and boats everywhere and just collect.
 
Ziggy Stardust said:
I was wondering whether the automatic selling of your goods when the warehouse overflows is also subject to the kings taxes? I'm guessing it is otherwise you'd have a great way to avoid them plus the bonus of not needing to ship those goods all the way to Europe. but I can't find conformation about it though. Just want to make sure.
Click to expand...

From what I read around, it does. Still, there is another exploit highlighted by Freddy_K: goods sold through warehouse overflow are not counted as sold goods and thereby, if you only sell goods through warehouse overflow, you won't ever get taxed (I tested it, I could make a few thousands per turn easily with such technique).
The current PatchMod (by Snoopy & Dale) changes the code so it does count toward your total sold goods to the kingdom which is one of the reasons why I don't use it.
Indeed, it damages a player expansion potential critically as the Europe prices very soon drop, and Natives sooner or later can't consummate enough goods so you sell them at very low prices. Basically, it forces you to plan all your expenses as your incomes are limited (completely nuts in a game in which economy plays such a key role).
Also, it enforces crazy micromanagement (marathon games become more tedious and less epic).

I sincerely hope that if an official patch ever comes, they will really think twice about doing what the PatchMod does.
 
benfp said:
From what I read around, it does. Still, there is another exploit highlighted by Freddy_K: goods sold through warehouse overflow are not counted as sold goods and thereby, if you only sell goods through warehouse overflow, you won't ever get taxed (I tested it, I could make a few thousands per turn easily with such technique).
Click to expand...


Yeah thats how i been playing from the start almost, i wouldnt go as far as to call it an exploit tho :lol: what else can a player do but play the game as it has been set out ? The kings first tax demand is often for food cause hes got nothing else to go for and then hell hit you for guns and horses cause your selling to the natives. Its entirely up to you how far you want the tax to go but in a normal game there is no reason ever for it to go past 15% and as you say gold is easy, 4 colonys can comfortably pull 1k gold a turn
And on top of that the fact the prices never colapse - try finding 3 silvers together and building a warehouse expansion you can just leave 3 miners to their task for the entire game
Why they did this is beyond me tbh, making the natives poor and giving the player unlimited gold just seems to have taken a little something from the gameplay
I hope they patch this and make it right, give us back customs houses and let the natives trade properly :(
 
benfp said:
From what I read around, it does. Still, there is another exploit highlighted by Freddy_K: goods sold through warehouse overflow are not counted as sold goods and thereby, if you only sell goods through warehouse overflow, you won't ever get taxed (I tested it, I could make a few thousands per turn easily with such technique).
The current PatchMod (by Snoopy & Dale) changes the code so it does count toward your total sold goods to the kingdom which is one of the reasons why I don't use it.
Click to expand...

The facts is, warehouse expansion overflow trade does take your king's tax plus a 50% additional discount on top of that ("smuggling" fee I like to think of). So, if you sell some goods this way with a 25 % king's taxation you will make 37.5% of the profit instead of 75%. You cannot trade boycotted goods because they are boycotted in all of Europe for that matter. Moreover, as you mentioned, these sales are not considered for the king as trading with him directly so they don't influence his tax rate increase. Nevertheless, from time to time, though you might be trading zero within the Europe screen, plus the goods you do still buy from Europe as tools, horses, trade goods, the King chooses to elevate your tax (boycotting randomly). So you can still be enduring a large taxation trading this way, which will even lessen your very reduced profit with smugglers/warehouse overflow sales; not to mention any good you might be smuggling is open for a party, as it has happened to me, and I had no choice but to kiss that awful ring for 4% increase.
There are other considerations as well but I don't have time today to further notice. All in all, using this as an alternative becomes a fair trade in some situations (for example if you have a couple of privateers literally blocking your ports to Europe), but not always. The amount of stock needed to sell some average volume is very high (immobilized goods in stock too costly). And the difference in profit you make might be very counterproductive in some stages of your colony when you need more cash ASAP.. etc, etc..

benfp said:
Indeed, it damages a player expansion potential critically as the Europe prices very soon drop, and Natives sooner or later can't consummate enough goods so you sell them at very low prices. Basically, it forces you to plan all your expenses as your incomes are limited (completely nuts in a game in which economy plays such a key role).
Also, it enforces crazy micromanagement (marathon games become more tedious and less epic).

I sincerely hope that if an official patch ever comes, they will really think twice about doing what the PatchMod does.
Click to expand...

I sincerely believe modifying this system as it is harms the game's options and strategy.
 
Ricci said:
Nevertheless, from time to time, though you might be trading zero within the Europe screen, plus the goods you do still buy from Europe as tools, horses, trade goods, the King chooses to elevate your tax (boycotting randomly). So you can still be enduring a large taxation trading this way
Click to expand...

If you dont buy from Europe you wont get hit for tax, try it and see. Next time you get hit for tax just stop all trading with Europe and thats the end of taxes for the duration of the game, maybe if you make some huge purchace the king will try and hit you twice for it, but after that no more tax rises. Only thing you cant make yourself is trade goods, you want tools buy a blacksmith. :)
 
Imagawa99 said:
If you dont buy from Europe you wont get hit for tax, try it and see. Next time you get hit for tax just stop all trading with Europe and thats the end of taxes for the duration of the game, maybe if you make some huge purchace the king will try and hit you twice for it, but after that no more tax rises. Only thing you cant make yourself is trade goods, you want tools buy a blacksmith. :)
Click to expand...

Ok, I suspected this but never confirmed in any game, it is good to know, thanks.
Anyway, I don't see it as a very good strategy in the long run. It will signify a huge stall to your entire trading machine until you can reach massive volumes of several goods stocks to overflow-trade them for proper money.
Of course, you can count on other forms of money but none so profitable as trading with europe (buying and selling), even on top of it's taxation. Remember Imagawa, the marginal cost of stalling your economy is huge, and future growth due to good money & good investment is exponential in this kind of games.
 
Ricci don't forget that warehouse expansion sell a percentage, not a number of goods. Therefore you aren't stalling your economy. As the stockpile gets bigger, so does the amount you sell. Your economy is ramping as as your production does.

Add to this the fact you can eliminate tax rises and thus you have the exploit I was arguing about in the patch thread. If these trades aren't tagged against Europe (as they should be) then you quite simply eliminate the entire taxation system.

BTW, you know the 50% you keep calling "smugglers", it would be more logical to say they are the same thing as the 50% on treasures (before you get a galleon): King's transports.
 
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