So, I'm bumping this topic, because I'm trying to pull some threads together. Sadly, warmonger calculation discussion has been spread over several topics, another important one is
here (
post 17 is really important).
However, I would like to ask some questions to these calculations:
Examples:
1. There are 24 cities total on a standard map, everyone has 1 city, plus 16 city states.
You take out your neighbor as Atilla. (52*10)/(24*1) = ~21 This is a high diplo modifier, but since it's early game, it WILL go away by mid-game, especially because early turns are faster.
2. There are 40 cities total on a standard map, everyone has 3 cities, plus 16 city states.
You take out your neighbor as Wu and all three of his cities. (52*10)/(40*3) + 520/(40*2) + 520/40 = ~24 This is a slightly higher diplo modifier, and should also go away later, but this will feel longer, since turns get longer. By this point in the game, you only want to do this if you have DoFs, and if you can get someone to join you.
3. This one's better.
There are 60 cities total on a standard map, Hiawatha has 40, your neighbor has 2.
You take out your neighbor and both of his cities. 520/120 + 520/60 = ~13. This will go away almost twice as fast as examples 1 and 2. If you only take 1 city, that's ~4, and will go away 6x faster than examples 1 and 2.
4. This one's much better.
There are 60 cities total on a standard map, Hiawatha has 40.
You take 1 city from Hiawatha, wipe out his army, and sue for peace taking Hiawatha's gold/offering city. 520/(40*60) = ~0.2. No one will care about this.
The large map modifier is to offset the expected larger number of total cities in the world in the denominator.
edit: as a frame of reference for these numbers, declaring war on a CS to worker steal = 2.5.
Now I want to know how these numbers relate to what's in the XML files. The XML files has a section about warmonger hate that looks like this:
Now I've highlighted three values that I want to tie to the calculation examples from this thread. The post on reddit quotes a formula that looks like this:
(
10 * estimated_num_cities) / (total_num_cities * num_old_owner_cities)
Now the number 10 in this formula must be - as far as I can see - the number 1000 listed in the XML files. I say this because the reddit post lists a penalty of 2.5 for declaring war itself, which would be the 250 in the XML file.
Now why is this interesting? It's interesting because the XML file tells us that warmonger hate decays at a rate of 5 points each turn. So let's look at those examples calculated earlier in this thread:
1) Take out a 1 city civ from 8 civs + 16 cs: Warmonger penalty = 2100
This warmonger hate will decay in
420 turns!
2) Take out a 3-city civ from 8 civs with 3 cities + 16 cs: Warmonger penalty = 2400
This warmonger hate will decay in
480 turns!
3) Take out a 2-city cv when Hiawatha has 40 cities: Warmonger penalty = 1300
This warmonger hate will decay in
260 turns!
4) Take one of Hiawatha's 40 cities: Warmonger penalty = 200
This warmonger hate will decay in
40 turns!
Now add on top of this what has been reported in
thread 17 of the topic linked above, namely that these numbers will be modified +/- 50% depending on the third party civs hatred or tolerance towards warmongers.
Is this actually how they made it? It means that taking out
one civ with 3 cities will get you warmonger hate for 400-500 turns (and 600-700 turns with civs that hate warmongers!) - or in other words,
an entire game!? Clearly, this would explain why many people complain about having Warmonger labels that "never" go away, even for what seems like fairly minor transgressions.
I hope someone can cast further light on this so that, hopefully, we can get this to work in a meaningful way.
I hope someone can cast further light on this subject, because wh
What? There is no casus belli system? There never has been? I kind of thought there was. Why else do I have the option of declaring war after discussing a spy stealing a technology?
