Warmongering - which ability?

Something I found quite interesting:

Assume you consider training your Horse Archers to Flanking 2 in anticipation of high-attrition warfare. War Chariots promoted to Combat 2 instead have the same combat odds on the offense.
If you lose a fight, withdraw chance is 50% for the 50-:hammers:-Horse Archers and 10% for the 30-:hammers:-War Chariots. Expected hammer loss per lost fight is therefore 25:hammers: for Horse Archers and 27:hammers: lost for the War Chariots.

Quite close, and for the same progress you need a much larger initial investment if you use Horse Archers and War Chariots will, for their cost, do far better on the defense. Of course this is but a snapshot and the assumption that Flanking promotions are worthwhile is a little shaky in the first place...
but imo it's a solid indicator that War Chariots can definitely be an asset throughout the Horse Archer era. Personally, I'd probably prefer them to any Horse Archer UU.
 
Iranon said:
Something I found quite interesting:

Assume you consider training your Horse Archers to Flanking 2 in anticipation of high-attrition warfare. War Chariots promoted to Combat 2 instead have the same combat odds on the offense.
If you lose a fight, withdraw chance is 50% for the 50-:hammers:-Horse Archers and 10% for the 30-:hammers:-War Chariots. Expected hammer loss per lost fight is therefore 25:hammers: for Horse Archers and 27:hammers: lost for the War Chariots.

Quite close, and for the same progress you need a much larger initial investment if you use Horse Archers and War Chariots will, for their cost, do far better on the defense. Of course this is but a snapshot and the assumption that Flanking promotions are worthwhile is a little shaky in the first place...
but imo it's a solid indicator that War Chariots can definitely be an asset throughout the Horse Archer era. Personally, I'd probably prefer them to any Horse Archer UU.
Click to expand...

I find this argument to be shaky, not in that it is factually incorrect, but rather in that it assumes high-attrition warfare. That is exactly the type of situation a mounted rush seeks to avoid, and it isn't atypical for mounted stacks to ignore heavily garrisoned cities in the horse archer time period.

Flanking II as a promotion is also questionable due to how combat break points work and the fights against the most typical defender of the time - the archer.

A normal, unpromoted archer with 50% inherent, 50% defenses (walls) and 25% fortify would defend at 3+3(1.25) = 6.75 strength. Fortunately this fight is simple since HAs take flanking (no change to defense strength) or combat II (they fight at 7.2 str then since combat applies to attackers).

7.2 vs 6.75 gives horse archers a substantial chance to win outright, something combat I or II war chariots (and numidian cavalry, by the way) do not match. Of course you still have the base withdrawal capability which is also a bit stronger for HAs.


After a while a good # of archers start getting CG I, but then not all cities have walls, and some HAs can make combat III to maul pretty much all early game flatland archers. Hills still hurt, and it's worth looking at how many of the stronger AI cities are sitting on them when deciding to rush - I've seen a deity player or two base their decision to HA rush on the very condition of hills vs not.

With a stack of 10-15 horse archers, you can typically take 2-4 cities without stopping, so unless the AI is sitting on an impressive offensive SoD, you really cut down on the attrition (and the need to replace your investments). In this category, keshiks are the grand masters, capable of ignore/abusing all terrain and holding a first strike vs non-archers. These things force field battles, and win them handily.

When all is said and done, I'd still take the war chariot, which is arguably the best pure rush unit outside of slow-speed quechas with leaders that are a lot more balanced should horse or a rush opportunity fall short. That said, I'd not be so quick to prefer war chariots over keshiks once the horse archer era begins, as the latter function as one of the top UUs in the game in practice despite their chronological misplacement by a couple thousand years. Terrain move is extremely under-valued and too many forget their first strike against melee. They are slightly weaker to PRO than stock HAs, if that extra first strike chance on the archer activates, but that is a minor issue and is completely trumped by the fact that these guys see very few defenders compared to other kinds of attacks.
 
TheMeInTeam said:
I find this argument to be shaky, not in that it is factually incorrect, but rather in that it assumes high-attrition warfare. That is exactly the type of situation a mounted rush seeks to avoid, and it isn't atypical for mounted stacks to ignore heavily garrisoned cities in the horse archer time period.

Flanking II as a promotion is also questionable due to how combat break points work and the fights against the most typical defender of the time - the archer.

A normal, unpromoted archer with 50% inherent, 50% defenses (walls) and 25% fortify would defend at 3+3(1.25) = 6.75 strength. Fortunately this fight is simple since HAs take flanking (no change to defense strength) or combat II (they fight at 7.2 str then since combat applies to attackers).

7.2 vs 6.75 gives horse archers a substantial chance to win outright, something combat I or II war chariots (and numidian cavalry, by the way) do not match. Of course you still have the base withdrawal capability which is also a bit stronger for HAs.


After a while a good # of archers start getting CG I, but then not all cities have walls, and some HAs can make combat III to maul pretty much all early game flatland archers. Hills still hurt, and it's worth looking at how many of the stronger AI cities are sitting on them when deciding to rush - I've seen a deity player or two base their decision to HA rush on the very condition of hills vs not.

With a stack of 10-15 horse archers, you can typically take 2-4 cities without stopping, so unless the AI is sitting on an impressive offensive SoD, you really cut down on the attrition (and the need to replace your investments). In this category, keshiks are the grand masters, capable of ignore/abusing all terrain and holding a first strike vs non-archers. These things force field battles, and win them handily.

When all is said and done, I'd still take the war chariot, which is arguably the best pure rush unit outside of slow-speed quechas with leaders that are a lot more balanced should horse or a rush opportunity fall short. That said, I'd not be so quick to prefer war chariots over keshiks once the horse archer era begins, as the latter function as one of the top UUs in the game in practice despite their chronological misplacement by a couple thousand years. Terrain move is extremely under-valued and too many forget their first strike against melee. They are slightly weaker to PRO than stock HAs, if that extra first strike chance on the archer activates, but that is a minor issue and is completely trumped by the fact that these guys see very few defenders compared to other kinds of attacks.
Click to expand...

You showed me several months ago the correct way to do a War Chariot rush, and I can testify that your analysis of War Chariot vs. Archer is totally correct. Archers and Axes are no problem for WCs....only Spears. The exception is the "protective" civs who can make archers with a ridiculous number of promotions. They really slow down the attack. Sometimes, I take out the easy cities with War Chariots and then just pillage the improvements around his capital until I can get stables to make +2 Horse Archers. Is that the correct thing to do in that situation, or is there a better option?:confused:
 
I'm with svart, why don't you forget industrial and try Charismatic and Aggressive? It's not like you can't build stone henge without it, all you have to do is get mysticism as fast as possible an start on it right away. And I don't even bother to try pyramids if i don't have stone, industrial or not, but then again I'm not a decent example since I play on noble. :lol:
 
The AGG trait...
Free Combat I promotion for melee and gunpowder units.
Double production speed of Barracks and Drydock.
Click to expand...
Obviously, 1/2 price barracks is cool... once per city.

Combat I? Depends. I only go for this with certain units...
Those mainly being units I hope to get to either Combat III plus march, or Combat I, Medic I, March...
So, Macemen (but CR is better, no?)... Paras... Knights etc...
Oops, doesn't apply to knights... melee and GP only. LAME.

Drydocks? haha, what a joke of a building. I RARELY build those.



Now, compare that to CHR... ALL units, plus happiness, which is important in early wars for supremacy.
Or ORG... one of the best traits, easily...
Or IMP... at least you get 1/2 price settlers to spam units from new cities and of course 1/2 price GGs!

AGG is one of my lowest rated traits (the others being PRO, SPI, and EXP).
 
definitely agree with you re. ORG and CHA being superior. But I think the higher the level (where you need more units) and the slower the speed (marathon especially units are just so much better value hammerwise than buildings) that AGG trumps IMP.

I also find I cant survive at immortal without lots of drafting , so the extra happiness from barracks is handy .

I know what you mean re. drydocks , but a MOI and HE combination with a few GG`s can be pretty powerful , but yes , as you say , how many do you really build ?

Also , when it comes to the free combat 1 , the true benefit is not the combat 1 , its the final promotion that you end up with after the unit is built. i.e the early shock axe or quicker , better medics
 
Speaking of quicker, better medics...
Red cross city... plus general.

Free Medic I, more importantly, you skip the need for Combat I or Drill I.
This means you can really beeline supermedics...
Woodsman III and Medic III. If you have a Red Cross City with 2 GGs, you have automatic supermedics I believe (from my most recent game, a loser in Emperor to ROOSEVELT in a space race of all things, as the dutch, regular speed).
 
Yes, but his plan is designated by more XML coding that his traits and UU...
 
That means, in the AI's hands, Napolean is a mediocre leader.
In proper human hands, he can be a monster with those traits.
Domination victory is basically for the asking.
 
i love montezuma. sword without resource, spiritual grants fast civ change in war time, aggr for the extra promo in early rush :)
 
Combat I is always useful every time anything fights. You don't have to keep going down the combat line - if you don't then you're simply 10% stronger than before.

More importantly 3 xp melee can take cover and shock (prats aren't so hot vs shock axes, and neither is other standard melee). 5xp can take amphibious. At tech parity AGG is a substantial war advantage since unless they compensate for your 10% bonus, you will have an advantage in field battles. Siege screws up the analysis, but not right away...not during the most crucial part of the game.

CHA is more flexible though.
 
kochman said:
That means, in the AI's hands, Napolean is a mediocre leader.
In proper human hands, he can be a monster with those traits.
Domination victory is basically for the asking.
Click to expand...

That is surprising. Can you tell me one or two key things that a human does with Napoleon that the AI does not do? Thanks.:)
 
Mass drafting of musketeers combined with knights is pretty good.
 
Ramesses-Rules said:
That is surprising. Can you tell me one or two key things that a human does with Napoleon that the AI does not do? Thanks.:)
Click to expand...
*Well, humans play to win. The AI doesn't really...
*Mass drafting musketeers and knights is a great idea, especially with some pre-positioned spies to get rid of cultural defense...
*The choices you make regarding diplomacy, etc...

I mean, is this really a question?
How does your play differ from the AIs, there are many answers, just think it out.


Combat I is cool, because it can help you get to supermedics faster, and cheaper, for example... I often go Combat I, II, II and then March with certain units (like knights).
However, CHR is the XP gift that keeps on giving, plus you get the happiness.
 
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