Warriors to axemen

How about just using Fall Further's method of giving axmen +25% vs warriors?

-Colin

This seems the best solution to me. We don't want to affect the relationship of warriors to other types of troops just tone down their use against the melee line.


Actually, I would go further and recommend adding a more decisive bonus to axes/ swords and champions :

Axes +100% versus warriors in addition to 10% against city
Champions +50% versus warriors in addition to +25% melee

These specific bonusses should end the sometimes heated discussion we've had in this and the other thread criticising Iron working (pitting warriors against champions). Superior melee line troops would trounce earlier ones until T4 units. That would also make defending against axe attackers with warriors much less useful and that might favour archers more.

I very much like the idea of warriors keeping bronze weapons and it would greatly diminish the game if that was removed.

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P.S. An alternative might be to give warriors a penalty of -50% against melee. That would make them much weaker attacking and defending against other melee. It would cancel out against other warriors including barbarian ones. The upgrade to axes or archers would be worthwhile.
 
Another alternative would be to change axmen to have +40% city attack. This would mean that even though warriors are nice and strong, axmen then become the primary city attackers.

On the remove iron/mithril from axmen - what about pyre zombies? The sheim don't get anything after them...

-Colin
 
Tlalynet said:
-1 to everything would create balance

Historical note: Once upon a time everything was 1 less Str than it was now. There was some reason to bump up the strength of everything by 1. I think it was to do with decreasing the range of strengths among Tier 1 and Tier 2 units. Reversing it would bring those problems back.
 
On the remove iron/mithril from axmen - what about pyre zombies? The sheim don't get anything after them...

I don't think people really are suggesting removing iron from axemen. As for the Sheaim, they have a number of metal using units from planar gates as well as their summoned armies and palace Death mana. I think they work. They can still get Arquebusiers, right?
 
Removing bronze weapons from warriors does seem reasonable although I don't see it as being strictly necessary. I see the following factors being of importance -

(1) warriors will still have all the properties that make them a robust unit at game start before bronze working is researched; this shouldn't be tampered with.
(2) warriors will be more clearly superceded in any task by one of the units in the next tier: hunters, horsemen, archers, or axemen.
(3) in any situation where a bronze warrior is currently 'needed' there will always be bronze axeman available to the player as an alternative, although upgrading a warrior army to an axeman/archer army will be cost prohibitive.

Alternative changes could be to stop warriors attacking at marginal odds (low morale), make them susceptible to magic, prevent beneficial magic affecting them, limit their promotion options, stop civics/buildings from giving warriors experience, give horsemen a bonus against warriors, make warriors perform worse within other nation's borders, give warriors a higher war weariness, etc.
 
That would solve the main problem Uncle JJ. The only thing is I do see warriors as being too strong vs other units, they have the same STR as horsemen and hunters and they really should lose in the field to them, especially to hunters as they already have a bit of a limited role.

-50% to melle would probably be the simplest way of accomplishing what you're talking about, and since all AI fields melee units it would make the obsolete at sword\axes\freaks.


ReaderCollin, Warriors would still be too powerful in the field where most combat should take place and SOD's should rise and fall. I don't think its necessary to take Iron off of axemen, I can see the case for taking Mithril off of them.

Senthro,
Thx for the historical note, that was a suggested solution that I thought might have unforeseen repercussions. Unless it is suggested again in ernest I will take it off the option list.

Dave,
I agree there are many other ways to balance warriors, but many of those suggestions are fairly complex or situational. You said one thing that was on my mind though, if you can build a bronze warrior you can build a bronze axeman, I don't see it as changing the early game too much. Or rather I see it as changing the early game alot in that warriorspaming is much less desirable as soon as BW is around, but Barbs probably wont kill you.


If you want to use the .XLSM editor to take metals off of warriors go to the units tab and start at KZ 372 and change the KZ, LA, and LB values to 0 or just delete them
 
Someone mentioned making Hunting somewhat cheaper. In my opinion, it's clearly overpriced now. I almost never research it unless I have a ton of the appropriate resources. I may trade for it later one to get assassins.
 
P.S. An alternative might be to give warriors a penalty of -50% against melee. That would make them much weaker attacking and defending against other melee. It would cancel out against other warriors including barbarian ones. The upgrade to axes or archers would be worthwhile.

This would introduce a lot of balance issues, including making barb skeletons unstoppable by any tier 1 unit.
 
This would introduce a lot of balance issues, including making barb skeletons unstoppable by any tier 1 unit.

Well spotted. It is far too simple for this complicated game :D There are many other units with the melee type, so that won't work. The skeleton is indeed the most troubling and would undermine the warrior's early game role.

I was trying to avoid having to add +50% versus warriors to all the various types of axes and swordsmen (about 10 sorts) and similarly to the 7 types of champions (editing nearly 20 units versus the 3 types of warrior). However, that would have the desired effect, without the problem you've discovered, at the cost of editing the same line into all those units. I suppose I have to return to that original suggestion (similar to readercolin's)
 
This would introduce a lot of balance issues, including making barb skeletons unstoppable by any tier 1 unit.

Hence why I am advocating careful and small (within 25% borders) change.
And as simple as possible.
Removing access from metals, giving axemen bonus against them, or making axemen:warrior cost ratio slightly better are how it can be achieved.

On hunters and bowman - agree, I do not use Tier 1 at all, unless very specific things are needed. But this topic should be separated or different thread "rebalancing Tier1" made active.
 
Very interesting thread.

I got the feeling that Warriors are overused. They are so cost-effective that I normally use them to defend cities against Tier2-3 units (but I counterattack with higher tech units).

I like the idea of removing Bronze from Warriors and Mithril from Axemen/Swordsmen and increasing the cost of Warrior to make him cost more than Scout.

I would be against too specific bonuses, versus specific unit (e.g. Axemen vs Warrior) or within borders. They would have very hard time being justified in real life. You should keep things not only balanced gameplaywise but also reasonable.
 
I'll have to say I'm not a fan of nerfing the warriors at all. True, they are a very good and cheap defensive unit to toss in your cities, but that's just their speciality. What will nerfing warriors do to the Luchuirp? It's very costly for that civ to make its ways towards producing Golems, not to mention the high cost of Wood Golems in hammers.

I can see where it's kind of a small increase in strength compared to costs of "Warrior to Axemen/Swordsmen", but in general I don't see the in-game problems with such. At the same time, we are talking about ancient military technology "slowly" evolving, where as time progresses, technology increases faster, and military prowess grows faster as well.

There is one thing you are forgetting about the gentleman that is spamming out Warriors early game to defend his cities while you might have access to axemen, in that he is playing "defense". Having to hide in his little fragile cities with warriors, too scared to bring them outside of the cities walls for fear that a higher strength Axeman will cut him down.

Meanwhile the player with the axemen can just station some units on a hill near the city, and go about business expanding his own empire.

Also spamming warriors on the defense has a major drawback of not being able to have an "active defense". So you have a decent stack of warriors defending a city, oh but your enemy is bringing a much smaller group of axemen and a few catapults up to attack. They place their units on a hill near your city, or a forest, or even worse a hill-forest. Suddenly your big stack of "arguably" super-uber warriors are completely useless as the enemy uses a couple of 80% retreat catapults to wear them down, turn after turn, while higher strength axemen make quick work of your weakened warriors. Maybe if you had Axemen in your city, you could go on the offense and make your way towards killing those catapults before they can change the odds against you.

Archery is one of those skills that isn't always necessary, and can be quite costly to pursue. On the other hand, you aren't just simply getting archers out of the research. It leads to the very powerful early game unit of Horse Archers. Not to mention Archery itself allows you to build lumbermills which can be quite beneficial early game depending on your land.

I don't know, I just don't see Warriors vs. Axemen severely affecting my games that much. If we are talking about trying to attack cities, it's when archers and longbowmen start popping up in cities that I groan knowing the losses I will incur when trying to attack the city.

Let's not forget that weakening Warriors will make fending off Lizardmen attacks pretty difficult as well, and they spawn crazy early sometimes!

Removing the useage of Bronze weapons I am definitely not a fan of, this completely removes the bonus of having bronze early (which gives nice flavor to the games).

One thing I will agree wholeheartedly with is that Hunting is just WAY too expensive of a tech. I very very rarely find myself learning hunting, even mid-late game. And it's a total shame too, because there are so many interesting things you can do with the animals before the AI wipes them off the map. Lately in games, even if I speed towards Hunting fairly early and endure the ridiculous amount of turns required to learn the tech, I still find myself lacking in suitable Subdue Animal kills. Usually once I can squeeze out a few Hunters, there is barely enough animals left for me to kill to even get the XP required to get to the Subdue Animal promotion.

I'd like to see a reduction in the beakers for Hunting, and perhaps some sort of tradeoff for the Hunting Lodge. The building itself can give some nice benefits depending on your resources (+1 health, +1 happy). Perhaps the amount of hammers on a lodge could be reduced, and in turn, is it possible to restrict the +health/happy until a specific later tech is learned? Perhaps restrict the Lodges city benefits until the next Hunting/Animal/Nature tech is learned?
 
I think we need a demonstration game because I found the idea that warriors could be useful for more than defense to be difficult as well. I think the reason I never noticed it was because I favoured civilizations that have better axemen or don't use them. Better: Sheaim, Calabim (who also have a hammer advantage). Cheap: Khazad (cheap upgrade, hammer advantage), Doviello (super cheap upgrade), Clan of Embers (double production). Don't use: Svart, Hippus, Luchuirp.

And heres another thing I just noticed. That list includes nearly all the most powerful civs except for the Lanun, most of the early warlike civs while only a few of the late-game advantage civs, and over 1/3rd of the total roster. It would be easy not to notice because the civ you play doesn't suffer from using axemen instead of warriors or because they don't go for early/mid wars because their advantage comes later.

So, yeah, I'm going to try and put together my own demonstration game using the Malakim who were the only civ I considered a favourite who I consistently did badly with and never understood why. Its because their axeman was just an axeman.
 
One thing I will agree wholeheartedly with is that Hunting is just WAY too expensive of a tech. I very very rarely find myself learning hunting, even mid-late game. And it's a total shame too, because there are so many interesting things you can do with the animals before the AI wipes them off the map. Lately in games, even if I speed towards Hunting fairly early and endure the ridiculous amount of turns required to learn the tech, I still find myself lacking in suitable Subdue Animal kills. Usually once I can squeeze out a few Hunters, there is barely enough animals left for me to kill to even get the XP required to get to the Subdue Animal promotion.

I believe that Hunting is expensive BECAUSE you're paying for all the cool things you can do with subdued animals. Caged animals can give you a really HUGE culture and happiness boost on a right map.
Having said that I have to admit that I seldom research Hunting, unless I'm Svartalfar.

Sorry for totally OT :blush:
 
I believe that Hunting is expensive BECAUSE you're paying for all the cool things you can do with subdued animals. Caged animals can give you a really HUGE culture and happiness boost on a right map.

But whats the point of taking the long plunge to Hunting and Animal Husbandry, then build Hunting Lodge, then build Hunters, then get them enough combat successes to get 2 promotions for Subdue Animal, only for 90% of the animals to be killed off already?

If you are lucky, there will be a bear spawn at the far reaches of the map still alive and kicking out bears every 40 or 50 turns. Or the dreaded Suped up level 5+ animal that has destroyed everything it's come accross and will probably eat 2 or 3 of your hunters for breakfast.

I guess for me, Hunting needs to be easier to get to, or the animals need to stick around long enough to make use of them.
 
But whats the point of taking the long plunge to Hunting and Animal Husbandry, then build Hunting Lodge, then build Hunters, then get them enough combat successes to get 2 promotions for Subdue Animal, only for 90% of the animals to be killed off already?

This is true on Pangea maps but typically not Erubus or island maps.

I think the real problem with hunting at the moment is that hunting just doesn't deliver enough economic benefit for the research cost. Most starter technology gives more benefit for less cost. Even if you have deer or ivory you're probably better off farming or mining the terrain in the short term.
 
Get a bear lair inside your cultural borders, and it will just keep spawning fresh bears who'll just sit there. Harvest them with a hunter, and thats every new city with +3 culture and +1 happiness.
 
@ Paco

I dunno, Luchiurp are one of my main civs and I find them to be one of the few civs warriors really are a bad idea to overuse. Wood golems can get an effective str of 9 out of the box, that's better than a fresh champion, plus you can heal them on the fly for a very early tech so they create a 90 hammer stack of battle marching champions that don't get XP. Sever civs with axmen UU's have better axemen than warriors as it is, but its not the norm.

The other thing is that a good player spamming warriors won't be doing it for defense, it will be so they can can bring 30 bronze warriors down your throat in the amount of time you can create 10 axeman because of the cost of axmen and the cost of training yards. If those warriors are only 25% weaker then your much more expensive premium units its game over even if you have a +30% city on a hill. Add a catapult into the mix and warriors can keep taking out civs well into the game.

Also if you bring a stack of 10 axes and a say 4 cats vs a stack of 20 warriors the warriors will invariably kill all the axes in the field as it is now, they would suffer 7-10 losses depending on luck but the attacking army would be completely routed.

If this was a 3to5 situation warriors would be undesirable on attack and while they could fend off the above stated attack it would be difficult to do.

Lizardmen will attack you in citys or on forested hills now, I have no problem with them under patch M even if I don't get bronze, are they still a problem for you or is this issue related to patch J barbarian tactics?

The bonus to having bronze early is access to axemen and potentially str 5 units, as it is warriors overshadow the unit BW gives. If you can get bronze warriors, you can get bronze axeman. Does that really change the game that much?


@ The hunting thing
I do my hunting with scouts, I can only afford to get hunting early if I'm playing on lower difficulty levels and even then it makes my empire suffer. For all intents and purposes hunting comes after all but elephents and monstrously promoted animals are dead (and perhaps a stray griffin) If the animal is strong I throw a warrior or two at it and hope it doesn't die, if its not the +125% vs animals is enough. The only time I hunt seriously is if I get a poisoned blade scout (actually not *that* rare for me when I dungeon pop far away) or I'm playing Svart and have 3 attack scouts. I just can't hunt with hunting as it is.
 
I would like to see "Force obsolescence of Warriors at Bronze Working" and "Force obsolescence of Scouts at Hunting" added as poll options. Although I do not agree that there is a problem with the current situation, I believe that if I am wrong then these are the only steps which will actually eliminate the use of these units instead of their upgrades.
 
Done, and that is a good idea too, the only reason warriors don't obsolete are their many upgrade paths, scouts disappear as soon as you have a lodge.
 
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