Was Alexander's Empire Greek or Macedonian?
- Thread starter Godwynn
- Start date
LouLong
In love with Rei Ayanami
He was the king of Macedonia and he or his sucessors could never completely digest the city-states.
Nevertheless his army as the armies of his followers relied a lot on mercenary hoplites from Greece as well as philosophers, actors, strateges (generals) or "administrators".
Macedonia itself had become really hellenized (Alexander's tutor was Aristotle himself) in the early IV century BC and spoke mostly Greek. The era that follows Alexander's campaigns and death is called hellenistic, hellen meaning Greek because it spread the Greek language and culture all over the former Persian Empire. The language was Greek, not "Macedonian", the troops were Greek mercenaries, the gymnasiums appeared in many cities as a show of Greek culture, as well as theaters,....
Alexandria was considered a Greek city (for a long time Egyptians were not allowed to settle there, albeit Jews could in the delta neighborhood. And to get control over definitely foreign lands, the heelenistic monarchs called for settlers from mainland Greece to establish cities, often with their own laws, walls and soldiers to control the countryside and spread the culture of the winners, the kings keeping (when they could) the overall diplomatic and military powers.
So in one sentence, Macedonia was not Greek but was hellenized so much that throughout its victory it is the Greek culture that became dominant. This is something the city-states, limited in size and power and constantly fighting among themselves for a limited hegemonia or to protect their independance could never have done by themselves.
Hope it helps. If you need precise answers about the system after Alexander's death I can definitely be of help provided you ask me precise questions
Nevertheless his army as the armies of his followers relied a lot on mercenary hoplites from Greece as well as philosophers, actors, strateges (generals) or "administrators".
Macedonia itself had become really hellenized (Alexander's tutor was Aristotle himself) in the early IV century BC and spoke mostly Greek. The era that follows Alexander's campaigns and death is called hellenistic, hellen meaning Greek because it spread the Greek language and culture all over the former Persian Empire. The language was Greek, not "Macedonian", the troops were Greek mercenaries, the gymnasiums appeared in many cities as a show of Greek culture, as well as theaters,....
Alexandria was considered a Greek city (for a long time Egyptians were not allowed to settle there, albeit Jews could in the delta neighborhood. And to get control over definitely foreign lands, the heelenistic monarchs called for settlers from mainland Greece to establish cities, often with their own laws, walls and soldiers to control the countryside and spread the culture of the winners, the kings keeping (when they could) the overall diplomatic and military powers.
So in one sentence, Macedonia was not Greek but was hellenized so much that throughout its victory it is the Greek culture that became dominant. This is something the city-states, limited in size and power and constantly fighting among themselves for a limited hegemonia or to protect their independance could never have done by themselves.
Hope it helps. If you need precise answers about the system after Alexander's death I can definitely be of help provided you ask me precise questions
Mongoloid Cow
Great Khan
Macedonian. It was never 'Greek' (the Greeks absolutely hated Alexander, and would have probably been insulted if had been called the Greek Empire) but like LouLong said, the Greeks were brought in to build cities to keep control of the empire. The Greek mercenaries he brought with him on campaign were only a token force, they had no real numbers or importance against his Macedonian troops. The Greek cities he built didn't remain Greek for long either, the native populations moved in (unless they were forced out like in Alexandria-on-the-Nile).
Stefan Haertel
Title
Alexander was despised, especially by the Greeks, in some way because he tried to style himself Greek, while the Macedonians were very clearly not Greek.
unlike my fellows, I think the exact "un-greekness' of macedon is being vastlyl overstated- particurlaey that of Alexandrian era macedon- for by then it, or at least its Capital had become the safe heaven for a great of ex-Athenian scholars, after the basic rebuffing of all that free thought which wa sblamed for losing Athens the peloponseian war...
now, that said, the greeks themslevs considered the macedonians semi-greek, they were even allowed to partake in the Olympic games- somthing that only one forign nation to the greeks ever achienved, and even then, incredibbyl begrudinglly- that nation would be Rome
Macedon had been invloved int he politics of southern greece in some way since the peoplonisan war, when it threw its lot in with the Spartans, thus giving an even greater presedence for being Greek-aprticurlay when comapared to the Thracians, who really were only heallinized barbarians...
now, that said, the greeks themslevs considered the macedonians semi-greek, they were even allowed to partake in the Olympic games- somthing that only one forign nation to the greeks ever achienved, and even then, incredibbyl begrudinglly- that nation would be Rome
Macedon had been invloved int he politics of southern greece in some way since the peoplonisan war, when it threw its lot in with the Spartans, thus giving an even greater presedence for being Greek-aprticurlay when comapared to the Thracians, who really were only heallinized barbarians...
Mongoloid Cow
Great Khan
I would have said the the transition of Macedon into changing from 'Thracian' to 'Greek' occured over a period stretching from King Archelaus (who led Macedon in the Peloponessian War) to Cassander. Alexander the Great I would put at the half-way milestone.
Alexander the Great's empire was Macedonian was was composed of Greek politicians, mathematicians, scientists, and warriors/mercenaries. Macedon was little more than an outside province of the old Greek empire that had gradually become somewhat seperate over the years.
Mescalhead
Vincebus Eruptum
I was always under the impression thet the Macedonians were ethnically Greek, but were considered barbarous and uncouth by their "proper" Greek cousins.
And calling the empire "Hellenistic" is in essence the same as calling it Greek. Am I wrong on that account?
And calling the empire "Hellenistic" is in essence the same as calling it Greek. Am I wrong on that account?
Mongoloid Cow
Great Khan
'Hellenic' would be calling it Greek. 'Hellenistic' seems to refer more to the Macedonians, the Seleucids, Ptolemies, Lysimachids, Cassandrids, Bactrians, Medians, etc. who founded their own kingdoms after Alexander and his heirs died.
Alexander was Macedonian, he spoke macedonian which is a language very similar to the one it is spoken today in the county Macedonia, but the ancient history was changed alot about this country in advance to Greece of course. After the macedonian empire has fallen, they paid a lot of money and other resources to write the history of Macedonia as greek.
Israelite9191
You should be reading
Alexander's empire would, politically speaking, have been the Macedonian Empire. Culturally, Greek, most particularly Hellenistic, culture was predominate. This is where the dispute usually arises. The Macedonians were an ethnically non-Greek people who adopted much of the Greek culture do to ghe fact that the Greek culture was so domintant. A way to think about it might be to think of it in terms to the early Russians and the Byzantines. While the cultural diffusion here is to a lesser extent, the message is pretty much the same. The Byzantines were the dominant culture and power to the south and the Russians were the "babrarians" to the north. Through trade and the spread of religion, the Byzantine culture came to be defining of the Russians, despite the fact that the Russians were of a completely different ethnicity and political body. The Macedonians were the same thing. They adopted the dominant Greek culture through trade and religion, but they were still a seperate political and ethnic body. There is, of course, another reason why you will sometimes here the Alexandrian Empire refered to as the Greek Empire. Some, in fact many, historians, fo the sake of simplicity, lump Macedonia together witht the Greek city states as a Greek political body rather than a seperate, Macedonian political body with a hybrid mainly Greek Greco-Macedonian culture. Actually, the comparisions between the Alexandrian and early Russian empires could make an interesting paper. Well, I hope that helps.
Greek Stud
Prince
The Kingdom of Macedon was considered unequal to Classical Greek City-State structured civilizations. The word Greek comes from a tribe in Southern Italy that was a colony of Classical Greece. The resentment against the Kingdom of Macedon was because of its structure as a Kingdom. It was undemocratic and therefore uncivilalized. Both the Macedonian citizens and people of ethnic Doric tribes are written as being not Greek, which means unequal to the civility of the Greeks.
Hellenism is not an ethnic word. Hellenism is consistently written throughout all time as being a state of mind, superior mind. Those who are Hellenes, were those who strived to be unified under one nation as living like the Greeks. Scholars have also documented the name Hellene as being derivative from a tribe in Thessaly. The tribes considered to be 'Greek' are all from Thessaly, directly below Macedonia. The Aeotolians, Achaians, Ionians and Doric tribes are considered to be the first Greeks, as in these tribes are responsible for Classical Greece. With the union between the Greeks and Macedon, these peoples are considered to have fostered a "new identity" separate from Classical Greece. Their idealism was to be like the Greeks, this quality was called Hellenism and therefore the Empire is Hellenic. That is why none of Alexander the Great's capitals were in Macedon (as an Empire).
In Empires, you have Imperical Capitols and Capitals of Kingdoms. For instance, skip to the Hellenistic Age and look at the Seluecian Empire. It's Imperical Capital was at Seluecia across the Tigris from Babylon. The Empire had Capitals in Kingdoms, such as: Antiochia, Ephesus, and many Alexandria's across the Middle East.
One point to add about the claim from Slavs that use information from Communist regimes is that they believe they have ethnic lineage to the Ancient Macedonians even though Slavic culture has an Eastern European identity. Somehow the archeological findings have been written in Ancient Greek in Macedonia. But Slavs claim that Cyrillic which is a documented language that was established well into the 6th and 7th centuries, that it is somehoe an Ancient Macedonian language.
Spiritfly's claim is that the Greek Government has had the power and influence to change archeological finds throughout the Middle East and North Africa. That Greeks have conspired to change what they dream is a Macedonian Empire into an Hellenic Empire. So you can choose to believe that all the excavations throughout the Hellenic Empire were fixed by the Modern Greek State, or that Greece's neighbors Egypt, Turkey, Lebannon, Lybia, Israel, Cyprus, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia are victim to the Modern Greek State and that we have the influence to infultrate their countries and place false findings in their mountains like Cappadocia, Turkey and Petra, Jordan where Hellenic influence is documented, but the Slavs want you to believe this is a Slavic (Macedonian) influence but just written in Greek because we suppressed ALexander who conquered Greece.
Hellenism is not an ethnic word. Hellenism is consistently written throughout all time as being a state of mind, superior mind. Those who are Hellenes, were those who strived to be unified under one nation as living like the Greeks. Scholars have also documented the name Hellene as being derivative from a tribe in Thessaly. The tribes considered to be 'Greek' are all from Thessaly, directly below Macedonia. The Aeotolians, Achaians, Ionians and Doric tribes are considered to be the first Greeks, as in these tribes are responsible for Classical Greece. With the union between the Greeks and Macedon, these peoples are considered to have fostered a "new identity" separate from Classical Greece. Their idealism was to be like the Greeks, this quality was called Hellenism and therefore the Empire is Hellenic. That is why none of Alexander the Great's capitals were in Macedon (as an Empire).
In Empires, you have Imperical Capitols and Capitals of Kingdoms. For instance, skip to the Hellenistic Age and look at the Seluecian Empire. It's Imperical Capital was at Seluecia across the Tigris from Babylon. The Empire had Capitals in Kingdoms, such as: Antiochia, Ephesus, and many Alexandria's across the Middle East.
One point to add about the claim from Slavs that use information from Communist regimes is that they believe they have ethnic lineage to the Ancient Macedonians even though Slavic culture has an Eastern European identity. Somehow the archeological findings have been written in Ancient Greek in Macedonia. But Slavs claim that Cyrillic which is a documented language that was established well into the 6th and 7th centuries, that it is somehoe an Ancient Macedonian language.
Spiritfly's claim is that the Greek Government has had the power and influence to change archeological finds throughout the Middle East and North Africa. That Greeks have conspired to change what they dream is a Macedonian Empire into an Hellenic Empire. So you can choose to believe that all the excavations throughout the Hellenic Empire were fixed by the Modern Greek State, or that Greece's neighbors Egypt, Turkey, Lebannon, Lybia, Israel, Cyprus, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia are victim to the Modern Greek State and that we have the influence to infultrate their countries and place false findings in their mountains like Cappadocia, Turkey and Petra, Jordan where Hellenic influence is documented, but the Slavs want you to believe this is a Slavic (Macedonian) influence but just written in Greek because we suppressed ALexander who conquered Greece.
Israelite9191
You should be reading
Oh, and here is the difference between 'Hellenic' and 'Hellenistic'. Hellenic is pre-Alexandrian Greek and comes form the period of Greek history when Athens was the center of culture. Hellenistic is post-Alexandrian Greek and comes form the Alexandria dominated Greek world. Hellenic society was more dominated by philosophers while the Hellenistic was more dominated by astronomers and mathemeticians. Hellenic art is charicterized by the idealization of the early teen-age male nude while Hellenistic art seeks to portray realism, right down to hagard old woman. Hellenic politics were dominated by the city states and their governmental systems of mainly Aristocracy and Democracy while the Hellenistic politics were dominated by the Macedonian concept of hereditary rule, the Monarchy. The Hellenic world was much more inward looking and self reliant for new ideas while the Hellenistic world was out looking and flourished in the ideas trade. The focus of the Hellenic world was in Greece, while the focus of the Hellenistic world was in Alexandria and in Persia. There's some more stuff, but I would have to go back through my notes from, like, a long time ago to find what I need.
Israelite9191
You should be reading
Greek Stud- You forgot to mention several Slavic countries in the Balkans.
Greek Stud
Prince
Israelite9191, although I love that you are interested in both the Ancient Greeks and the Byzantine Greeks, the reference actual proves the point that Macedonian as an ethnicity was as ethnic Greek as the Vlachs, who I assume you are reffering to as they are who spread the Byzantine Orthodox Church to the Keivian Rus (Ukrainian) who had their dominance taking by the Slavs of Moscow.
There is strong evidence that Ancient Greeks not only lived in the Ancient Kingdom of Macedonia, but that the royal families of Macedonia interrmarried with Greek families (from Epidamnos, Argos and so on). As you will notice in Civilization 4, the first name to Thessaloniki (a female Greek name, which many Greek women have today) was Argos Oreitiki. There is no doubt that the royals of Macedon are related to the royals of Greek City-States.
Greeks were not a world power. The Hittites, Babylonians, Egyptians and Axumites were the world powers in that era. The Greek unity between all city-states and the Kingdom of Macedon made them a world power. And even at that, they are always listed as having a far smaller sized army than their opponents (ie battles at Tyre and against the Persians and Babylonians).
Remember the Greeks never called themselves Greeks. This is a label we give to them in hindsite. Their only invissioned unity was in Hellenism.
The references to Greeks hating Alexander must be documented on here. This would only have served momentarily after the City-States being captured by the Macedonian Kingdom, otherwise Greek enlistment and migration into the Hellenic Empire would have never occurred. Greeks were known for not wanting to leave their homeland, and only did so in the honor of Hellenism, and in the Hellenic vision of conquering the world. In one reference where Alexander asks to marry a Bactrian princess, you will see another spark of confusion in saying Greeks hated Alexander. They saw him as the icon of Hellenism, being like a Greek God marrying a tribal princess. Alexander's status as being Greek is tested in this very instance. The generals yell at him, asking why he would not marry Greek? It is against his own people. Just as this is seen in Modern Greece as being anti-Greek, the generals point this out in this instance too.
The Byzantine Empire's only involvement in the Russian region was in Crimea. The Byzantines also fought with the Visigoths, Ostrogoths and the Dacians north of the Eastern Roman Empire. The Byzantine Greeks did not acheive Byzantine dominance in the multi-ethnic Empire until after the 4th Crusade. And the politics of the Byzantine Empire after the 4th Crusade was mostly domestic.
During the Ottoman Era, the Greek elites at the Phanar (the Lighthouse), intermarried with ethnic Vlachs living in Maldavia (Moldova). Before the Vlachs, this area above Thrace was an emerging Civilization of Dacia (present-day Romania and Moldova). The royal intermarriage with the Vlach Kingdoms brought Orthodoxy to this region under the Ottoman Empire. Eventually these Kingdoms were conquered by the Ottoman Turks, and the Orthodox influence poured into Kiev. The Keivian Rus (Ukrainian Kingdoms) were then free to control the politics of the Orthodox Church locally instead of by the Phanar in Constantinople, Ottoman Empire. The Orthodox identity grew in this area indepently and separate from Constantinople. In fact, the elites in the Phanar had once financed a revolution in Maldivia, Ottoman Empire for an indepent Greek State. Under the Ottoman Empire, ethnicity was based on religion, and Ottoman Turks placed all Christians under the Rum Millet. The Vlachs were classified as being under the Rum Millet, yet personally they related more to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church more than the what was then the Rum Millet, Byzantine Orthodox Church.
Its a hard comparison, because this Byzantine Orthodox influence into Moldova had never completely united with the Byzantine dream. Whereas, the Ancient Macedonians were actively free and open with the Ancient Greek polis. Macedonia, do not forget fell to the Romans near Corinth. The Macedonian region, as classified was never attacked by the Romans. The Macedonian Wars were a response by Rome with the Macedonian leadership becoming allies to Carthage. Rome paid the Aeotolians and Athenians to fight with them, as you must remember that Kingdoms act independently from their Empire. As did Pergmon when it surrendered its land to Rome before Macedonia fell.
Ancient Macedonians spoke Greek as Illyrians spoke Latin. I will laugh soon when everyone on these boards start asking if the Albanians are Illyrian. And ALbanians will say their language was hidden and is derived from Illyria. Albania has become emboldened by the fact that there is international talk of the future of Kosovo. Albanian leaders in FYROM are already refering to an independent (Albanian) Kosovo and they plan to attack FYROM. Albanians have stated that they believe they are the descendants of Illyria, but not to the nationalistic extent of the Slavic Macedonians.
Balkan People today view themselves as part of a nation and also part of a state. Nationhood is a combination of ethnicity, religion and language. When the west encouraged civil strife within the Ottoman Empire, the nationalistic dreams were linked to Nationhood. The Slavs that are no doubt had been an intrincate part of the Byzantine Macedonia, the independent Kingdom of Thessaloniki, and Ottoman Rumelia lived in this area. But they have been instilled with an idealism that they are the "sole" descendents of Macedonia, a Macedonia which has always been multi-ethnic. And the arrangement to discredit the connection between Ancient Macedonia and the Hellenistic World, is for their national dream, not their State dream. State dreams, are the modern view of citizenship within a democratic State. As in, I am ethnically Greek, but live in the USA, therefore I am an American citizen with Greek ethnicity. Macedonians not only have "self-determined" themselves to be Macedonian citizens, but also say they are nationally, ethnic Macedonians. And therefore, they will politically always fight diplomatically, or as one Macedonian said on this board (we will have so many babies and get you Greeks back for this) where I dont know how to classify this cohersion of future stability. The main difference between Greeks and Slavic Macedonians is language. They are the same religion, and as they say they have inherited Macedonianism then no doubt they have inherited Hellenism, in which Greeks are Hellenes. Slavic Macedonians are good people, but the idealism of Macedonism is the falsified case. They are a community that is one social structure, one language, one religion, but just like the Greeks, Serbs, ALbanians, Bulgarians, and Turks have this "GREATER" national view of themselves. And they use the word Macedonia for a nationalistic interest in Pirin Macedonia and Greek Macedonia. Otherwise they would recognize the region as Greek Macedonia because that is what Greece calls it, and the FYROM calls it Aegean Macedonia because they believe they are a seperate ethnicty. As if Greeks did not live in Macedonia or as the Turks called it Rumelia during the Ottoman Empire.
Basically, for your report, in Ancient Macedonia, the Kingdom was multi-ethnic and the royal families of Ancient Macedonia not only all have Greek names and Greek last names; but they are also documented as intermarrying with Greeks, being tutored by Greek scholars, and having similar Greek Gods. Not only did Greeks live in Macedonia in Ancient Times, but they also lived in Thrace, Southern Italy (Magna Graecia), Kyrene (Africa), Aegypt, Georgia (Colchis), Pro-Pontus (Byzantion, Lampsakos), Troy, Lydia (Phildelphia, Dionysiopolis, Sardis), Ionia (Ephesus, Melitus), Cyprus, Iberia (Spain), Monaikos (Monaco), Massalia (France), Alalia (Corseca), Caralis (Cagliari), Sicily and also are documented as having intermarried with indigenous Lycians both before and after Persia dominance over Lycia at cities like Halicarnassus and Tarsus and Issos.
Ancient Greek Scholars equally spoke against the Kingdom of Macedon as they did Sparta and Lycia. Even the question of Troy only points to the answer that the Trojans were a part of the Greek world, but just as we dont know where the Greeks came from, we dont know why the Trojans spoke Greek, nor that the Spartans spoke Greek?
Do not mix up the Ancient Macedonian question with the Modern Macedonian question. They are two different questions.
There is strong evidence that Ancient Greeks not only lived in the Ancient Kingdom of Macedonia, but that the royal families of Macedonia interrmarried with Greek families (from Epidamnos, Argos and so on). As you will notice in Civilization 4, the first name to Thessaloniki (a female Greek name, which many Greek women have today) was Argos Oreitiki. There is no doubt that the royals of Macedon are related to the royals of Greek City-States.
Greeks were not a world power. The Hittites, Babylonians, Egyptians and Axumites were the world powers in that era. The Greek unity between all city-states and the Kingdom of Macedon made them a world power. And even at that, they are always listed as having a far smaller sized army than their opponents (ie battles at Tyre and against the Persians and Babylonians).
Remember the Greeks never called themselves Greeks. This is a label we give to them in hindsite. Their only invissioned unity was in Hellenism.
The references to Greeks hating Alexander must be documented on here. This would only have served momentarily after the City-States being captured by the Macedonian Kingdom, otherwise Greek enlistment and migration into the Hellenic Empire would have never occurred. Greeks were known for not wanting to leave their homeland, and only did so in the honor of Hellenism, and in the Hellenic vision of conquering the world. In one reference where Alexander asks to marry a Bactrian princess, you will see another spark of confusion in saying Greeks hated Alexander. They saw him as the icon of Hellenism, being like a Greek God marrying a tribal princess. Alexander's status as being Greek is tested in this very instance. The generals yell at him, asking why he would not marry Greek? It is against his own people. Just as this is seen in Modern Greece as being anti-Greek, the generals point this out in this instance too.
The Byzantine Empire's only involvement in the Russian region was in Crimea. The Byzantines also fought with the Visigoths, Ostrogoths and the Dacians north of the Eastern Roman Empire. The Byzantine Greeks did not acheive Byzantine dominance in the multi-ethnic Empire until after the 4th Crusade. And the politics of the Byzantine Empire after the 4th Crusade was mostly domestic.
During the Ottoman Era, the Greek elites at the Phanar (the Lighthouse), intermarried with ethnic Vlachs living in Maldavia (Moldova). Before the Vlachs, this area above Thrace was an emerging Civilization of Dacia (present-day Romania and Moldova). The royal intermarriage with the Vlach Kingdoms brought Orthodoxy to this region under the Ottoman Empire. Eventually these Kingdoms were conquered by the Ottoman Turks, and the Orthodox influence poured into Kiev. The Keivian Rus (Ukrainian Kingdoms) were then free to control the politics of the Orthodox Church locally instead of by the Phanar in Constantinople, Ottoman Empire. The Orthodox identity grew in this area indepently and separate from Constantinople. In fact, the elites in the Phanar had once financed a revolution in Maldivia, Ottoman Empire for an indepent Greek State. Under the Ottoman Empire, ethnicity was based on religion, and Ottoman Turks placed all Christians under the Rum Millet. The Vlachs were classified as being under the Rum Millet, yet personally they related more to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church more than the what was then the Rum Millet, Byzantine Orthodox Church.
Its a hard comparison, because this Byzantine Orthodox influence into Moldova had never completely united with the Byzantine dream. Whereas, the Ancient Macedonians were actively free and open with the Ancient Greek polis. Macedonia, do not forget fell to the Romans near Corinth. The Macedonian region, as classified was never attacked by the Romans. The Macedonian Wars were a response by Rome with the Macedonian leadership becoming allies to Carthage. Rome paid the Aeotolians and Athenians to fight with them, as you must remember that Kingdoms act independently from their Empire. As did Pergmon when it surrendered its land to Rome before Macedonia fell.
Ancient Macedonians spoke Greek as Illyrians spoke Latin. I will laugh soon when everyone on these boards start asking if the Albanians are Illyrian. And ALbanians will say their language was hidden and is derived from Illyria. Albania has become emboldened by the fact that there is international talk of the future of Kosovo. Albanian leaders in FYROM are already refering to an independent (Albanian) Kosovo and they plan to attack FYROM. Albanians have stated that they believe they are the descendants of Illyria, but not to the nationalistic extent of the Slavic Macedonians.
Balkan People today view themselves as part of a nation and also part of a state. Nationhood is a combination of ethnicity, religion and language. When the west encouraged civil strife within the Ottoman Empire, the nationalistic dreams were linked to Nationhood. The Slavs that are no doubt had been an intrincate part of the Byzantine Macedonia, the independent Kingdom of Thessaloniki, and Ottoman Rumelia lived in this area. But they have been instilled with an idealism that they are the "sole" descendents of Macedonia, a Macedonia which has always been multi-ethnic. And the arrangement to discredit the connection between Ancient Macedonia and the Hellenistic World, is for their national dream, not their State dream. State dreams, are the modern view of citizenship within a democratic State. As in, I am ethnically Greek, but live in the USA, therefore I am an American citizen with Greek ethnicity. Macedonians not only have "self-determined" themselves to be Macedonian citizens, but also say they are nationally, ethnic Macedonians. And therefore, they will politically always fight diplomatically, or as one Macedonian said on this board (we will have so many babies and get you Greeks back for this) where I dont know how to classify this cohersion of future stability. The main difference between Greeks and Slavic Macedonians is language. They are the same religion, and as they say they have inherited Macedonianism then no doubt they have inherited Hellenism, in which Greeks are Hellenes. Slavic Macedonians are good people, but the idealism of Macedonism is the falsified case. They are a community that is one social structure, one language, one religion, but just like the Greeks, Serbs, ALbanians, Bulgarians, and Turks have this "GREATER" national view of themselves. And they use the word Macedonia for a nationalistic interest in Pirin Macedonia and Greek Macedonia. Otherwise they would recognize the region as Greek Macedonia because that is what Greece calls it, and the FYROM calls it Aegean Macedonia because they believe they are a seperate ethnicty. As if Greeks did not live in Macedonia or as the Turks called it Rumelia during the Ottoman Empire.
Basically, for your report, in Ancient Macedonia, the Kingdom was multi-ethnic and the royal families of Ancient Macedonia not only all have Greek names and Greek last names; but they are also documented as intermarrying with Greeks, being tutored by Greek scholars, and having similar Greek Gods. Not only did Greeks live in Macedonia in Ancient Times, but they also lived in Thrace, Southern Italy (Magna Graecia), Kyrene (Africa), Aegypt, Georgia (Colchis), Pro-Pontus (Byzantion, Lampsakos), Troy, Lydia (Phildelphia, Dionysiopolis, Sardis), Ionia (Ephesus, Melitus), Cyprus, Iberia (Spain), Monaikos (Monaco), Massalia (France), Alalia (Corseca), Caralis (Cagliari), Sicily and also are documented as having intermarried with indigenous Lycians both before and after Persia dominance over Lycia at cities like Halicarnassus and Tarsus and Issos.
Ancient Greek Scholars equally spoke against the Kingdom of Macedon as they did Sparta and Lycia. Even the question of Troy only points to the answer that the Trojans were a part of the Greek world, but just as we dont know where the Greeks came from, we dont know why the Trojans spoke Greek, nor that the Spartans spoke Greek?
Do not mix up the Ancient Macedonian question with the Modern Macedonian question. They are two different questions.
Israelite9191
You should be reading
Greek Stud- Sorry if what I said was mistaken. I was not saying that the ancient Macedonians where Slavs, only that they were from an Indo-European group that can not be classified as completely being Greek. Because of proximity, however, and the dominance of the Greek culture, the ancient Macedonians did absorb much fo the Greek ethnicity. The Macendonians came from the wave of Indo-Europeans that invaded the Greek peninsula while the Greeks are a mix of that wave and the original inhabitants. What I was trying to say is that the ancient Macedonians were ethnically tied to the Greeks, but not completely of the same ethnicity, and that the Macedonian culture, while for hte most part Greek, maintained many influences of living on the border of the civilized world. If you notice, I said there were similarities between the two instances, but that the macedonian case was much more extreme. The differences that you point out are what would make it a very interesting topic of a paper if you ask me.
Greek Stud
Prince
Israelite9191- I totally agree with what you are saying, dont be sorry. I think I wrote my post wrong. In addition to your discription of the ethnic differences, it must also be stated that the influences of Macedonians and Greeks between each other were also intermarriage. This is the same case with every group that the Greeks are composed of. Greekness is not in likeness as to what radicals look to as a pure race. Greeks consistently say that we are a mix of many tribes. Minoan from Crete, Mycenae as the first major tribe, then the Achaian-Aeotolian-Ionian invasions from Thessaly, next were the Doric, and then the Macedonians.
We also see the history between our colonies as another cultural mix between peoples into the Greek identity. The Trojans, the Ionian Colchis, the Ionian Lycians, the Mycenaen Philistines. And into the Byzantine Empire, the continued identity of Greekness was in the Roman name and the Greek tongue. Slavs were Byzantine invaders who later became a part of Byzantine culture. Seljuks were in the Byzantine Empire but separated themselves from the Byzantine identity, thus beginning the path to the Ottoman Empire. Thracians in the Ancient World spoke Greek and were influenced by the Greek colonies, such as the story of Sparticus in Magna Graecia, he speaks of his Greek family. In the Ottoman Era, Armenians, Pontian Greeks, Nestorian Persians, Orthodox Assyrians, Vlach Greeks, Serbians, Bulgarians, Croats, Montenegrin, Cyprians, Maronites and Copts were part of the Rum Millet. Those who chose to identitify as Greek did so, as they had to attributes to the Greek identity, religion and language. Those who didnt know the language feared being a party to the Greek identity and you can study their minority groups today as we all feel victim to persecution before and during WW1.
The Greek position on Macedonianism is one of multi-ethnic and intermarriage whereas the Slavic Macedonians claim to be the sole inheritors to the Macedonian identity, and even if they do not state that, the name issue is at the UN for this very reason, because it gives the impression alongside some Macedonian schoolbooks that they view themselves in that way. And the stories of how they inherit the Ancient Macedonian language and ethnicity and say the Greeks were never a part of the trangression gives furthur evidence of this nationalistic view of what Macedonianism really is.
We also see the history between our colonies as another cultural mix between peoples into the Greek identity. The Trojans, the Ionian Colchis, the Ionian Lycians, the Mycenaen Philistines. And into the Byzantine Empire, the continued identity of Greekness was in the Roman name and the Greek tongue. Slavs were Byzantine invaders who later became a part of Byzantine culture. Seljuks were in the Byzantine Empire but separated themselves from the Byzantine identity, thus beginning the path to the Ottoman Empire. Thracians in the Ancient World spoke Greek and were influenced by the Greek colonies, such as the story of Sparticus in Magna Graecia, he speaks of his Greek family. In the Ottoman Era, Armenians, Pontian Greeks, Nestorian Persians, Orthodox Assyrians, Vlach Greeks, Serbians, Bulgarians, Croats, Montenegrin, Cyprians, Maronites and Copts were part of the Rum Millet. Those who chose to identitify as Greek did so, as they had to attributes to the Greek identity, religion and language. Those who didnt know the language feared being a party to the Greek identity and you can study their minority groups today as we all feel victim to persecution before and during WW1.
The Greek position on Macedonianism is one of multi-ethnic and intermarriage whereas the Slavic Macedonians claim to be the sole inheritors to the Macedonian identity, and even if they do not state that, the name issue is at the UN for this very reason, because it gives the impression alongside some Macedonian schoolbooks that they view themselves in that way. And the stories of how they inherit the Ancient Macedonian language and ethnicity and say the Greeks were never a part of the trangression gives furthur evidence of this nationalistic view of what Macedonianism really is.
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