Was my rep trashed?

[Xethorsiph]

Ok, here's what happened. My nearest neighbor is the Celtic Empire. Being that it is early in the game, they are strong as hell. To try and curb them, I start a war with their nearest neighbor other than me, the Maya, and drag the celts in via Alliance. As a part of the deal when it came up for renewal 20 turns later, I got Theology and gave several GPT. A few turns later they finished off the maya. Now when I offer 1gpt for 8 gold, they say no such deal is possible. However, if i offer 1gpt for 1 gold, the deal is acceptable. Is my rep trashed or just partially trashed?

 

[vmxa]

It sounds ruined to me. One of the things that can happen in a gambit like yours is the guy you want to hurt gets stronger and more dangerous. I do not like to get others in a fight, unless I am sure that the out come is what I want.

IOW the most likely thing is that nothing much happens, but the next most likely thing is that the strong civ will crush one of the weak civs and gain more land. I do not want that.

To try to avoid that I would not bring the weakest nations into the fray. Let the other guy bring them in, so they cannot gain from them.

 

[Optional]

I don't see any reason to think you suffered even the slightest dent in your reputation.
You would get a rep hit for opting out of an alliance, like if you signed peace before the 20 turns of the deal are over, but if the civ you were allied against gets destroyed you won't suffer any rep hit.
Other than that, the Celts are still accepting your gpt, so your trade rep is fine. The fact that they won't give 8 gold for your 1gpt is probably something the AI never does. In general, paying for something with gpt is a lot more expensive than paying upfront. The AI just doesn't give anyone much credit, I suppose. You could test this on any other gamesave if you want to be sure.

 

[timerover51]

I am puzzled by all of this concern about "rep". The AI is your enemy. Why worry about what any of the other civilizations think of you? The only thing that I am interested in getting from the AI is their maps, preferably without giving them mine, although that may not mean much based on some of the other threads. I do not depend on the AI for tech research, regarding that as a very bad idea. I do not worry about trading with them for anything, as that limits my freedom of action. My only concern is are they bothering me, or do they have something, normally rubber, that I need. (For some reason, rubber always seems to be in someone else's territory unless I do some of my own map building.) If that is the case, then I take it, sign the peace treaty, and proceed forward. When playing with human players in a board game, I worry about "rep", but then human players in a board game are infinitely more flexible than a computer.

 

[dexters]

AI is your enemy when they have a chance of winning. when i'm not playing for domination, they're just as well as a pawn on my side.

Especially on builder games, you can use their capitals to make gpt for your economy. Best thing ever. That trading aspect is key.

Ok, here's what happened. My nearest neighbor is the Celtic Empire. Being that it is early in the game, they are strong as hell. To try and curb them, I start a war with their nearest neighbor other than me, the Maya, and drag the celts in via Alliance. As a part of the deal when it came up for renewal 20 turns later, I got Theology and gave several GPT. A few turns later they finished off the maya. Now when I offer 1gpt for 8 gold, they say no such deal is possible. However, if i offer 1gpt for 1 gold, the deal is acceptable. Is my rep trashed or just partially trashed?

Inner workings of Reputation can be read here.

This is what the article has to say about your situation.

Your gpt deal could get broken and trash your reputation if any of the following things happens before the 20-turn deal ends:

* You declare war on that AI (including MA/MPP).
* You are exporting resources and could no longer do so for the following reasons:
o the resources are lost, depleted or disconnected.
o the trade route between you and the AI is cut (AI capital isolated, harbor is destroyed, the AI through which the route goes declares war on you or the other AI, etc).
* You break an MA or MPP.

But it also says this

Cases that do not trash your rep

3. The AI you are paying gpt is destroyed

Its possible trade route to the AI was cut off before they were destroyed.


Basically it's trashed for up front deals where you give them something gpt for something lump sum. The AI thinks you cheated it out of deals.

But it will still be fine if you offer them something lump sum, like techs or gold for them to pay gpt back.

 

[Optional]

Your trade reputation only affects the AI's willingness to accept your gpt or lux in 20 turn deals. The other way around; you accepting their gpt is always Ok; your rep is not at stake there, possibly the AI's, but that's your own call.

Different people play the game in a different way. Some people like to be able to buy from the AI for gpt. To keep your rep clean is then valuable. I find the ability to sign alliances more important.
Timerover, you probably play the game a bit differently from most people. I guess you like some space around you for the ability to expand peacefully. In a random game on a high difficulty level it's often difficult to keep the peace. There's gonna be war. The ability to sign alliances and get other civs on your side can then be crucial, even if only to try and prevent them from siding against you.
I hope your not mistaking reputation for attitude. What other civilizations think of you (whether they're gracious, polite, cautious, annoyed or furious) hasn't got anything to do with your reputation, that's something quite different.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Keeps your friends close and your enemies closer. If you like having all the money in the world, you need a sterling reputation. Also, tech trading can work great with a good rep. Why research everything, when you can use the AI as your personal research birch? "hey research birch, get Astronomy researched, and I'll give you gunpowder" That sort of thing. AI research for fun and profit.

 

[Xethorsiph]

I have read that article, which was why I was so surprised that my rep was trashed. I decided to test it by asking the AI themself (By proposing a deal and seeing what they say). Turns out that I had some sort of deal with the MAYA when I DoW on them. I don't recall making any deals with them, but that explains what happened, so sorry for the confusion.

 

[Spoonwood]

I am puzzled by all of this concern about "rep". The AI is your enemy. Why worry about what any of the other civilizations think of you? The only thing that I am interested in getting from the AI is their maps, preferably without giving them mine, although that may not mean much based on some of the other threads. I do not depend on the AI for tech research, regarding that as a very bad idea. I do not worry about trading with them for anything, as that limits my freedom of action. My only concern is are they bothering me, or do they have something, normally rubber, that I need. (For some reason, rubber always seems to be in someone else's territory unless I do some of my own map building.) If that is the case, then I take it, sign the peace treaty, and proceed forward. When playing with human players in a board game, I worry about "rep", but then human players in a board game are infinitely more flexible than a computer.

This comes as the sort comment that shows you don't play, nor really understand the standard civ III game. First off, to say "the AI is your enemy" almost totally ignores the Diplomatic Victory condition. For this sort of game, it often works out well enough or best to consider literally *all* the AIs as your friends. Sure, you'll face one in elections, but you might not even successfully predict this as the territory/population lead can change in the bloody industrial ages. Reputation... what the other AIs think of you... comes as one of the factors that affects how often they attack you. Want to focus on just one war with the mighty Maya? Don't trash your reputation then. Want to stay out of wars? Don't trash your reputation. Want lots of votes in the U.N. election? Don't trash your reputation.

I don't think anyone would say they depend on the AI for tech research exactly. But, especially on harder levels one can use it to your advantage in some ways. For instance, I recently won a Deity huge game diplomatically in the 12th century on the first vote. How did I get such a finish date? I beelined to literature and built the Great Library (this may have actually slowed things down... but still), and then once it expired I selected researched techs and traded them for other techs with the Deity AIs. I probably averages something like a 2-3 turn research rate (faster than the 4 turn minimum I could do by myself) by trading. Also, during this time and in the industrial age and earlier I sold tech for gold per turn deals. This enabled me to cash-rush all sorts of useful improvements like universities and keep my science slider as high as I liked it. Without that gpt flowing in, I probably couldn't have picked up steel in 6 or 7 turns as I did... no way. I also gifted the scientific civs into the industrial age and traded/bought their free techs... that probably saved me another 8 or so turns of research. Sounds like a friendly proposition to me . Also, since I had a good reputation I didn't have to worry about, nor did, upgrade my warriors in my towns until I decided not to give the Hittites Electricity when they demanded it. I had something like 10 tribes with plenty of units walking over my territory in the middle and early industrial ages and they didn't bother to attack me. I know I posted a screenshot of this around here and can give you a link if you like.

 

[Aabraxan]

I am puzzled by all of this concern about "rep". The AI is your enemy. Why worry about what any of the other civilizations think of you? The only thing that I am interested in getting from the AI is their maps, preferably without giving them mine, although that may not mean much based on some of the other threads. I do not depend on the AI for tech research, regarding that as a very bad idea. I do not worry about trading with them for anything, as that limits my freedom of action. My only concern is are they bothering me, or do they have something, normally rubber, that I need. (For some reason, rubber always seems to be in someone else's territory unless I do some of my own map building.) If that is the case, then I take it, sign the peace treaty, and proceed forward. When playing with human players in a board game, I worry about "rep", but then human players in a board game are infinitely more flexible than a computer.

All the concern about rep is a matter of trade. I agree with you, timerover51, that the AI is my enemy. But one of the aspects of the game that I rather enjoy is economic warfare err, trade. I spend quite a bit of time at war and AI civs usually spend most of the game Furious with me. Nonetheless, I usually have a clean reputation, which allows me to buy and sell for gpt and goods. When I'm at war with one civ, I'm looking for ways to trade to my advantage with the others, buying and selling techs or maybe propping up my main rival's neighbor. In order to do so, I need to keep my rep clean.

 

[dexters]

An interesting theory I have for example is that human players really shape the game in ways that may not have been properly tested.

AI behavior in debug games is vastly different from AI behavior when I'm in it.

For example, in debug games, AI field more of everything. Continental AIs could easily have 50 warships, 20 bombers and so on. But when I'm in it, a continental Civ may have half that amount due to the gpt going to me and the contracted army they can support and my active involvement in denying them full luxury happiness, resources etc. all affect how AIs, even powerful ones, may develop.

 

[timerover51]

Aabraxan and Mr. Lefelhocz, maybe I should make myself more clear. I have no interest it playing the standard, unmodified game. I tried playing it in the basic version on the Mac, and disliked it immensely. I endeavored to us the misbegotten editor that came with the Macsoft version, but it normally took several tries to produce a map that actually worked, so I simply quit playing a game that had no enjoyment to it. I did not return to playing until my son was required to purchase a Windows laptop for school, which was the first Windows machine in the house, along with the 6 existing Macs, for 4 people. I then discovered that the Windows version did have an editor, and the results actually would work on the Mac C3C version as well. I returned to playing the game and decided that I still disliked the standard, unmodified version. The more I read on the boards, the more that is reinforced, especially by screen shots showing an endless terrain of closely packed cities, roads and rails, irrigation and mines, with the odd mountain occasionally showing. If that is what is needed to do in order to win in the standard game, then it is seriously broken and in desperate need of fixing. If you LIKE to play that way, I guess that is your choice.

With respect to "reputation", I have no interest in trading with the AI. Since I now produce my own maps, I make certain that I will get access to all needed resources without having to deal with it. I make certain that by playing on huge maps or better, that the AI is far from me so that I can develop in peace, without having to deal with AI combat units and settlers wandering over my area, or finding the AI demanding stuff from me, or even having to view the annoying comments. I am tempted to convert most of them to "Insert annoying comment here", and continue to ignore them.

As for Mr. Lefelhocz comments regarding a Diplomatic victory, I build the UN only to keep if from the AI, although I probably could simply delete the Diplomatic victory option. My personal view of the UN is that it is a ludicrous triumph of misplaced idealism, and the sooner the US withdraws from it, and escorts it functionaries out of New York City, the happier I will be. With the withdrawal of the US, it should collapse relatively quickly, as did the equally ridiculous League of Nations. Therefore, what perception of AI might have on me is meaningless in my view. I am not worried about winning at Deity or Sid levels, my ego does not require that boost. I play for my own enjoyment.

Now, as it is clear that I am on oddity on the boards, someone who actually challenges the status quo, and does not slavishly follow the advice of my betters, I will cease to disturb you. I trust that you will enjoy your game. I just pity the new players who follow your advice.

 

[dexters]

timerover, it's fine to play mods, but the discussion is about the epic game, which isn;t for everyone but is what the AI is designed to cope with.

 

[Aabraxan]

Aabraxan and Mr. Lefelhocz, maybe I should make myself more clear. I have no interest it playing the standard, unmodified game. . . . .

The more I read on the boards, the more that is reinforced, especially by screen shots showing an endless terrain of closely packed cities, roads and rails, irrigation and mines, with the odd mountain occasionally showing. If that is what is needed to do in order to win in the standard game, then it is seriously broken and in desperate need of fixing. If you LIKE to play that way, I guess that is your choice.

With respect to "reputation", I have no interest in trading with the AI. Since I now produce my own maps, I make certain that I will get access to all needed resources without having to deal with it. . . . .

Now, as it is clear that I am on oddity on the boards, someone who actually challenges the status quo, and does not slavishly follow the advice of my betters, I will cease to disturb you. I trust that you will enjoy your game. I just pity the new players who follow your advice.

timerover51, let me also be a little more clear, if I may. I'm aware that you don't play, and have no interest in playing, the unmodified game. You've stated that in several different posts. I think that's fine. I have no objection your use of the editor to produce a game that you do enjoy. Never have had. You should not play a game that you don't enjoy. As you noted in another thread, that's what the editor is there for.

Believe it or not, I do enjoy playing densely-packed, warmongering empires. It's an affinity that I've had since long before Civ 3 came out. That certainly doesn't mean that everyone enjoys that. Those that enjoy playing a different kind of empire should do so. I've said it before & I'll say it again: You should not play a game that you do not enjoy.

What I found most interesting in your previous post was the unequivocal statement that the AI is your enemy. I generally take the same stance: The AI is my enemy. Yet you and I have developed radically different solutions to dealing with that enemy. You have reduced their visible presence in the game. I trade to keep them broke and beat on them with big, nasty, pointy things. The other thing that you've repeated in several threads is something to the effect of: "You want to tell me how you play, fine. Do not tell me how I should play." (That's not a direct quote, merely a paraphrase.) I was just telling you how I play.

 

[Spoonwood]

""hey research birch, get Astronomy researched, and I'll give you gunpowder""

Don't you mean "get Astronomy researched, and I'll give you Banking"? You trade Printing Press for gunpowder... obviously.

 

[Chamnix]

First off, to say "the AI is your enemy" almost totally ignores the Diplomatic Victory condition. For this sort of game, it often works out well enough or best to consider literally *all* the AIs as your friends.

For diplomatic victory, I usually consider one AI my vassal who will vote for me, one AI my trading partner that I will make as strong as possible early then just before the vote, and the other AI are squatters on my land who will be eliminated before the vote .

This may vary if there are multiple scientific tribes that I want to keep around, or if the difficulty is too high to eliminate almost everyone and still keep a fast research pace, but I'm sure you get the general idea .

 

[Spoonwood]

I'd call that "bloody diplomacy" Chamnix.

 

[silver 2039]

@OP yes it is ruined. Its quite annoying really, this shall make trades and alliances difficult for you.

I suppose now you could give up hope of diplomatic and start lobbing nuclear weapons. Thats what I would do anyway.

 

[dexters]

I believe it is only ruined for trade of that sort. Magnitude of the broken deal also counts.

ROP should still be fine. Large GPT deals can still work.