Water maps - traits synergy

[josephstalin]

Which traits work best on water maps (archipelago, islands, etc.)? Do some become virtually useless, do some shine?
By synergy, I mean that the map enhances the benefits of the trait, e.g. financial having more 2 gold coasts than usually. The secondary benefits (like double production speed) should be taken into account too.
Please pick only 2 traits, like a real leader would have in a game. Feel free to comment and discuss.

 

[Bast]

Financial is obviously the best for water maps.

Creative isn't as powerful because there isn't such a stress on land grab.

 

[josephstalin]

I would say that financial is an easy pick. I was not so sure about the other one, courthouses and lighthouses would be build in almost every city, which suggests organized...

 

[Bast]

I would say that financial is an easy pick. I was not so sure about the other one, courthouses and lighthouses would be build in almost every city, which suggests organized...

That could work. Or you could go Imperialistic and get that Great General attached to a caravel to get to the circumnavigation bonus.

Don't forget Expansive gets cheap harbors too.

 

[CivCorpse]

Financial and Industrious. The GLH is key. With no resource to boost it and production being scarce on water maps industrious puts you in a position to really shine

 

[CCRunner]

Financial and Organized
Financial for obvious reasons
Organized for cheap lighthouses and cheap courthouses.

 

[vale]

Let's go about it from a different tact.

I'm going to start with the assumption that we will prioritize snagging the GLH. That will bump our early commerce nicely. But nothing is going to bump our early production very well so trait discounts are going to be very important here.

Organized is clutch here. Not only does it help support our GLH fueled REXing with cheap courthouses, it discounts the prerequisite lighthouse so acts as a mini-industrious boost to the construction of the GLH. In addition it allows us to run more expensive civics like Organized Religion and Bureaucracy with less upkeep. Organized is by far the best trait in this situation.

I take Expansive rather than Industrious or Financial as my secondary trait. There are several reasons:

1. Health, not happiness will be the main factor in limiting cities growth in most situations thanks to HR.
2. You get a discount to the best building for production in low hammer environments: Granary. Earlier granaries mean earlier production of everything else that comes out.
3. A discount to the harbors for your TRE doesn't suck either.
4. Worker production bonus is not really very clutch in this situation since there is much less for workers to do on these maps. But it still worth something.
5. In general, I will be choosing to work food resources and mines before coastal tiles because of the general low production of these types of maps. So the commerce bonus of financial will not be as useful as I would like in the early going. In the later going, the bonus on coastal tiles may be mitigated somewhat by the larger size of the expansive cities (more tiles worked, larger trade routes) and further infrastructure development (cheaper granaries and harbors). Furthermore, in general on these maps, production, not commerce, is the limiting reagent.
6. This is a strategy dictated by the desire to get one (typically relatively easy to get) wonder so the necessity of Industrious is tempered.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

Financial is the obvious best trait water maps. But there are lots of secondary traits that also help a lot.

Charismatic is a good one. Early game, the majority of your infrastructure will be whipped. Cities with seafood will grow quickly, making whipping buildings easy. the extra 2 happiness will let you whip that much more.

Organized is good because of the buildings. Archipelago maps almost always have high distance from palace costs, your entire empire is more spread out, so being able to whip those lighthouses at size 4 is just great. The lighthouses help a ton as it'll be most cities' first build.

Philosophical is also good. if you plant all your cities by seafood you'll have more food than you'll need. You can run specialists to stop growth and have a greater chance to get GPs.

Industrious for the great lighthouse, a game winning wonder on archipelago maps. Plus lots of other useful buildings, stonehenge for that crucial early border pop, the colossus, etc.

Expansive is also underrated, but the cheap granaries lets you start whipping more efficiently sooner, and the cheap harbors are great. Plus fresh water is limited to nonexistant, so it's nice to have more health.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

Organized and Financial...yeah. Or Organized/Industrious.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Industrious and Organized.

Quick Lighthouses, Forges, Courthouses, Great Lighthouse, and Colossus.

 

[Gliese 581]

Financial obviously, or you won't want to work any coast tiles and get small cities.
Industrous bc of the overpowered GLH on archipelago/islands.

The traits also synergize in that you'll have a greater chance of getting the colossus for 2f4c coast tiles.

 

[Scaphism]

Charismatic has another advantage: Your units promote at 2 and 4 XP respectively, instead of 2 and 5. Barracks do not give XP to naval units, which means you lose out on 3 xp. Running Vassalage/Theocracy/Settled Great General will let you pump out Level 2 ships when non-charismatic leaders will almost always start with 1 promotion. There isn't much granularity in naval units so promotions often have a huge impact on the outcome of naval battles, moreso than land-based troops.

I don't think naval battles are hugely important most of the time, but it is another edge for Charismatic.

I'd rank Financial, Industrious, Organized and Expansive as top tier traits, with Spiritual, Philosophical, and Charismatic below. Creative isn't bad, because hammers are very valuable in new cities and you'd likely have excess food in most cities so you could run a lot of scientists in cheap libraries as well, but the trait isn't as good as it is on crowded land based maps where your borders can crowd out the AI.

 

[eewallace]

Financial plus organized. That would be Darius in BTS.

(But Hannibal is financial, starts with fishing and has the cothon.)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Financial and Industrious. The GLH is key. With no resource to boost it and production being scarce on water maps industrious puts you in a position to really shine

Ditto for my vote! This is why Inca is probably the most versatile civ in the game. It can play anything - close quarters rush, water maps, cottage heaven, prioritizing certain wonders, etc etc.

Also, quechas = barbs pwnt, with no archery. That and the terrace can only speed things up.

!@#$ incan uniques aside, the traits are good too. Financial is a pretty versatile trait (I prefer ORG for warmongering, but early warmongering is harder and more rare on water maps, making financial overtake it in my eyes even early on). Industrious, as mentioned, secures the GLH much more easily, and cheap forges are a welcome early kickoff on a map that's likely to be a tad hammer poor.

 

[Iranon]

I picked FIN and IND. FIN is always worthwhile with all that water, and IND helps solve the production issues (important wonders, and cheap early forges across the board).

ORG seems to have synergy with this, thanks to the cheaper lighthouse... but I find that on water maps the cheap courthouse almost go to waste and. With the 'free' trade income from the Great Lighthouse, commerce multiplier buildings will usually do better. There is also less pressure to overexpand, which is when courhouses truly shine. Add a lot of tiles only usable for commerce and FIN outshines it.

FIN/ORG is, however, a close second.

 

[Diamondeye]

Agree with Vale.

 

[tycoonist]

as on every map, i would want financial and charismatic

 

[Lord Chambers]

I'm glad financial was obvious.

I'm worried only 4 people realize earlier great people outweighs production bonuses for lighthouses. Get to Astronomy sooner. Liberalism. Civil Service. Everything which is a prerequisite for success on a water map. Clearly Philosophical > Organized.

As for Expansive's "earlier" Granaries, are we really going to claim that whipping one less population unit on a map filled with seafood is going to overcome the benefits of either Financial or Philosophical? Really Vale? One more person is, what, 10 turns or so? I can see your grounds for the argument, but not that it overcomes earlier great people or, my god, an extra commerce on the majority of your empire's tiles for the entire game. Claiming that Financial is less valuable on a water map because you're more likely to work food and hammer tiles since its hammer-poor sounds daft. I guess on a regular map you work more commerce tiles since the hammers would be so easy to come by if you tried?

 

[Bleys]

IND for the wonders (GLH is a game-winning wonder on a majority of maps, IMHO) and forges. EXP for Granaries and Harbors.

I agree with Vale that once into HR, vertical growth gets limited by health, and Granaries and Harbors + EXP solves that out of the gate. In a TRE, you want big cities, especially if you have AI cities on other landmasses to trade with. Early in the game, and early in a new cities life, production is going to come from the whip, and later, you just cannot beat a fast Harbor in a new coastal city.

I like traits that support my ability to REX, and the GLH is the key to that ability. An earlier Great Person is nice, but odds are I am going to get around the same number of GP each game anyway, I dont mind getting them later. Few things are as powerful as a fast-chop/whipped Harbor in new cities when I have the GLH.

FIN is a very strong trait everywhere, and certainly helps support a REX, so its a tie with IND and EXP, but I dont think its better because I tend to run whip based FE's early, until the TRE has a chance to bloom. A fast Harbor with the GLH in a 2 or 3-pop city is worth a lot more than FIN, FIN wont bloom until I have extra citizens to work those cottages or coastal tiles.

You may "think" you will work those coastal tiles, but in reality, you are more likely to have better tiles to work instead. Think about how cities are placed, especially coastal ones. They try to encompass a seafood resource and some land based resources. Are you going to work a coastal tile instead of a grass-iron mine? Or Gems or gold? Or even over a simple riverside grass-hill with a Mine on it? Seeing all those pretty 2f+3C tiles in your City-screen is nice, but in reality, the only sea tiles you are likely to actually work for the majority of the early game are the seafood, and later, as your population rises, you will want to work cottages, not coast, even if they arent worth as much commerce . . . yet.

 

[dutchfire]

It really depends on strategy and map situation. For example, Aggressive + Axerush could work out well on some maps, while you're terribly isolated on others.