Way, way way behind in tech in the industrial era. What now?

[JulianL]

Ok, I'm not too proud to ask for help in the middle of my first ever game of Civ3!

so, Monarch level, (seemed to be like the ideal starting difficulty given my civ2 experiences but finding it tougher than I thought!)
The year is 1640 and I'm Caeser. Comrade Caeser actually.
I was aware I was behind the Koreans, Germans and French in tech but I suddenly got a nasty shock as to how far behind I could actually be. I wandered over to a Korean city and discovered guerillas which means they at least have Replacable parts. I'm researching Electricity.

This far behind so late in the game can't be a good situation, so I'm wondering how retrievable this is and what sort of strategy I should pursue?

Should I concentrate on research or should I trade techs?

Also is warmongering (which is what I'm leaning towards) a good idea in this situation? I really want to expand my finances and research capacity.

A complication with the trading side is that I think my trading rep is ruined, I poured my available technology down the throats of the even more backward Persians a while back (they were still in the medieval age) for gold per turn expecting them to survive the multiple AI attack on them for 20 turns but with about 6 turns left they were wiped out. Bad call there, and now the AI bring up the Persians as if its my fault every time I try to make a trade.

Game situation now is - I'm backwards compared to the Koreans, French and Germans but on a level with the other 4 civs. I'm at war (and yes, I started it - I decided there was no point waiting!) with one of my scientific equals, the Americans and I roped in the Germans and the Aztecs as my allies. For the moment the Koreans are at peace and fortunately they are at the other end of the map. I'm 2nd in score behind the Koreans, 1st in population and land mass and 2nd in GNP and manufactured goods. I think I've kept my rep clean as far as starting wars go.

Theres a save game file if anyone wants to have a look at it.

Any advice on strategy welcome and also any tips, large or small, on managing my empire in this situation. Many thanks

 

[OG_Pieps]

Tricks that often work: Build an army and attack an technologically advanced enemy. Try to hit as hard as possible and stop the war before your opponent strikes back. Than you can get Techs for pease.
Another, very good trick (even in Sidgames) is to get as much troops as possible and conquer the big library city. Sign ROP with the Countries between you and the Great Library. After you got the techs, you can leave the city and go back with the army to defend your borders. Survive the war by switching to the best units in any cities.

I will give better tipps when you edit the game description. Good Luck so far!

 

[JulianL]

I like the first trick - I hadn't really thought of that, I haven't yet extorted techs for peace from anyone.
I think though I can't untangle myself from my war with America just yet. If I do that, my alliance with Germany and the Aztecs would force me to redeclare again, is that right?

Bit late in the game for the 2nd trick I think. Actually I built the Great Library and it didn't turn out to be very handy until I suddenly got flooded with technology and it then became obsolete in the same turn when I made contact with about 5 civs! Our continent was a lot more backward than the other.

Forgot to mention before that I'm playing PTW and the wonders I have are - Great Library, JS Bachs and The Great Wall which I captured.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Game situation now is - I'm backwards compared to the Koreans, French and Germans but on a level with the other 4 civs. I'm at war (and yes, I started it - I decided there was no point waiting!) with one of my scientific equals, the Americans and I roped in the Germans and the Aztecs as my allies. For the moment the Koreans are at peace and fortunately they are at the other end of the map. I'm 2nd in score behind the Koreans, 1st in population and land mass and 2nd in GNP and manufactured goods. I think I've kept my rep clean as far as starting wars go.

Maybe declaring war on Korea and signing MA's with Germany and/or France etc would be a good option.

ETA: You actually do not have to participate in the war very much ...

 

[Bartleby]

You will not be able to extort tech for peace after the ancient age; the techs are just too expensive. Also note that the "great library trick" is only useful before you get education (tho' I play emperor-demigod, and I've found that the AI research is not really fast enough to get a proper benefit from this strategy anyway).
The best bet in your situation to get the AI involved in as many wars as possible--this will cause them to use up their units and make life a bit easier for you. Razing their core cities will drastically reduce their research capabilities, helping you to catch up--for that, you need Cavalry and (lots and lots of) Artillery--so get to Replaceable parts ASAP!

edit: just to mention that I haven't looked at your save, as I can only post here from work. Chances are someone better qualified than me will be able to look at it and give you sepcific advice.

 

[Beamup]

I was aware I was behind the Koreans, Germans and French in tech but I suddenly got a nasty shock as to how far behind I could actually be. I wandered over to a Korean city and discovered guerillas which means they at least have Replacable parts. I'm researching Electricity.

This far behind so late in the game can't be a good situation, so I'm wondering how retrievable this is and what sort of strategy I should pursue?

So what evidence do you actually have that you're so far behind? From what you've said, you could easily be well ahead, as you're less than 2 techs from having RP yourself (you are, after all, researching the prereq), and you could readily be ahead on other branches of the tech tree. Particularly since you have one of the strongest economies.

Don't jump to conclusions too fast. From your description I don't see any indication that you have any major problems at all. You're somewhat behind the tech leaders - not a terribly big deal. You've got one of the top 2 economies, and top population and land area - meaning that if you have enough workers out, you'll quickly take the top slot.

To get the tech lead, you'll want to trade. Check out what techs the various AIs can and can't offer you in diplomacy. Then, research techs they don't have and trade them for ones you lack. Also, if the Theory of Evolution has not yet been built, get Medicine & Scientific Method ASAP while you start a prebuild for ToE. The two bonus techs will give you good trading leverage.

To summarize, it sounds like you're overreacting badly, unless there's something major you aren't saying. Do a bit of trading to get the tech lead, and you should be able to win fairly readily given how well it sounds like you're doing so far.

If I could look at your save, I'd tell you exactly how badly off you are... but I can't right now. But it really doesn't sound like you have much of a problem at all.

 

[TimBentley]

Is anyone building Theory of Evolution yet (I don't have time to look at your save, just opened it in CivAssist II)? If not, you're only about 4 techs behind (the AI will research replaceable parts as soon as it gets electricity). If you build ToE, I'd suggest getting atomic theory and electronics (a common tactic). Selling atomic theory should get the rest of the technologies, and you can keep electronics at a monopoly while building Hoover Dam.

 

[DaveMcW]

Get out of Communism immediately! This is the worst government in PTW.

 

[gunkulator]

You will not be able to extort tech for peace after the ancient age; the techs are just too expensive.

Only partly true. What you can get is a discount on tech when making peace. Try this. See what the cost would be for a tech plus peace. Now go and kill a few more units and/or take a city. Check the cost again. It should be less.

 

[vmxa]

I did not look this over real close, but first, use the wait at end of turn always. You want to be able to go over things and see where you are.

Second why hold Bactra and Lisht? I wold move units into those cities, sell of structures and gift them. One to Greece and one to Aztecs. All they will do is tie up troops and need protections.

Third get a hold of all workers and string them together to rail. Rail major cities to each other with one crew and the other should work from a city to the borders and rail the circumference of your land.

This will allow you to defend with ease. You may find it worth pealing off a few to rail the top city, if it is building something important.

Do not go into communism, now get out.

Get those cities off of wealth, you are at war. You need ships to get troops and some rifles to hold captured cities. Armies to to the capturing.

Do not waste shields on privateers.

Send a lot more units to America, you do not want to take 50 turns to subdue them. If they get infantry it will get expensive.

 

[JulianL]

I see my circle of advisors has widened considerably! cheers guys!

You've helped me think this situation through clearer and I've got a much better idea of what I want to do now.

I'll try and answer your points and let you my thoughts briefly before I throw myself into the game again.

vmxa - I like the idea of gifting Lisht and Bactra but would it be simply as a gift? Actually I don't see the AI giving me anything much for them but my trading rep is already shot, so if gifting those cities is going to help that plus increase my chances of making alliances later on, I'll do it.

As for workers I had generally been using most, though not all of them to rail in the last few turns. I think though that at rate I'm going its far too slow so I probably need more of them. Also I'm probably not prioritising a rail network enough, I'm trying to connect major cities but also rail for extra shields. I should probably drop the 2nd idea for now and just get a network running first.

and Communism!! Nobody seems to think that was a good idea!
I did that because I thought I'd be likely to start further wars and I was worried about unhappiness. I guess though the advantages of democracy outweigh that, so I guess its time for another period of anarchy and hope I don't lose too much further ground.

as for privateers, that was really curiosity value. I built 2, the first one is sitting at the bottom of the ocean, failed miserably on its first attack. The 2nd one took out a galley but I've come to recognise that they're much use to me.

TimBentley - no, nobody yet is building Theory Of Evolution, so so if I'm only 4 techs behind thats something. It still seems like a bit much though and I can't see how I'm going to be first to Atomic Theory or Electronics especially as I'm about to have another unproductive period of anarchy.

unless - Wars and plenty of them. Bartleby & Lord Emsworth, you both seem to think that will help. I'm inclined to agree and, through necessity, I'm not going to participate much in those wars either. I've only 3 galleons and I need those to attack America. Don't really see that I can knock the Americans down that quickly either but I'll have to concentrate there and hope the other AI I declare against choose to go after each other rather than me!

Rough plan of action I think, is to wait 2 or 3 turns before declaring a revolution. In that time I'll build a few more workers in my central bigger cities and try to get at least one extra ship out of a coastal city somewhere, plus a few extra rifles.

Then a period of anarchy.

Only question then is when to start triggering wars. I'm inclined to declare against France or Korea and try to get the other civ on my side, and then hope that they waste their energy on each other! I think perhaps I'll do this during my 2 or 3 remaining turns in Communism.

Trading techs (if I can!) will begin once I'm in democracy and by that time hopefully the wars I've started will be slowing down the AIs capacity to research.

Do these sound like the plans of a madman??? Seems like I'm gambling a bit here - look what your advice has led me to!!

Anyway, many thanks everyone - I'll keep you posted if you're interested, probably won't get very far tonight, but we'll see.

 

[incubuspawn]

Ok, I'm not too proud to ask for help in the middle of my first ever game of Civ3!

so, Monarch level, (seemed to be like the ideal starting difficulty given my civ2 experiences but finding it tougher than I thought!)
The year is 1640 and I'm Caeser. Comrade Caeser actually.
I was aware I was behind the Koreans, Germans and French in tech but I suddenly got a nasty shock as to how far behind I could actually be. I wandered over to a Korean city and discovered guerillas which means they at least have Replacable parts. I'm researching Electricity.

This far behind so late in the game can't be a good situation, so I'm wondering how retrievable this is and what sort of strategy I should pursue?

Should I concentrate on research or should I trade techs?

Also is warmongering (which is what I'm leaning towards) a good idea in this situation? I really want to expand my finances and research capacity.

A complication with the trading side is that I think my trading rep is ruined, I poured my available technology down the throats of the even more backward Persians a while back (they were still in the medieval age) for gold per turn expecting them to survive the multiple AI attack on them for 20 turns but with about 6 turns left they were wiped out. Bad call there, and now the AI bring up the Persians as if its my fault every time I try to make a trade.

Game situation now is - I'm backwards compared to the Koreans, French and Germans but on a level with the other 4 civs. I'm at war (and yes, I started it - I decided there was no point waiting!) with one of my scientific equals, the Americans and I roped in the Germans and the Aztecs as my allies. For the moment the Koreans are at peace and fortunately they are at the other end of the map. I'm 2nd in score behind the Koreans, 1st in population and land mass and 2nd in GNP and manufactured goods. I think I've kept my rep clean as far as starting wars go.

Theres a save game file if anyone wants to have a look at it.

Any advice on strategy welcome and also any tips, large or small, on managing my empire in this situation. Many thanks

First mistake was playing your first game on Monarch here is a cookie for bravery I have not played rome at all, ( usualy French, Babylonian, or China ) BUt what I find helps the industrial age immensly is to beam line it to build the theory of evolution first. Yes this means ignore nationalism. The ai almost allways go that route. That means you get to trade for it later You want factories and you want the hospitals, the build theory of evolution and make sure your research is cued up to electricty, also while building the theory of evolution have 0 going into research ( save that money ). Once you have built the theory of evolution, you should suddenly find yourself electricity ( if you cued it up ) make hoover dam first, then trade electricity for everything they have got. I admit this is easier as french, because yu can time your golden age to boost you to industrial and manage to get the tech to build the theory of evolution first.

 

[Psycho]

BTW JulianL, next time select Americans or Chinese (you still can edit if not liking them), they are industrious nations and their workers work twice faster then the other nationalities and this is the best national specific advantage in the game you may get. Especially if playing the game the high expansion rate way. After all, fast expansion is a must on Emperor/Deity level since you can`t afford letting any tile unoccupied, unirrigated... You have to gain the maximum of every tile within your borders if not wanting to be smashed by "cheating" (or just highly privileged) AIs!

 

[Beamup]

Also France, Persia, and Egypt are Industrious.

Of the five, France probably has the best second trait for building, and China for warmongering. And China and Persia both have excellent UUs.

 

[Psycho]

I am playing CIV for 13 years but here on the forums it always takes me a time to catch what your guys mean with various abbrevations. This time it took me only 15 seconds to understand "UUs" are Unique Units.
Isn`t any "Civfanatics forum abbrevations list" available somewhore on the site?
That`s the point, combination of industrious (fast workers) + militaristic (faster skill improvement of military units + higher chance to get a leader to create Army) is the best combination how to survive on Deity level. BTW, has anybody of you managed to make a technology, cultural, elimination or whatever victory on deity level? If has, how the hell you have reached that? :-o I don`t consider being a noob in CIV, but Deity level in CIV3... Emperor level in CIV2 is nothing but walking through the blooming garden in comparison to this...
I rather don`t want to imagine what for even more devil advantages AI will have in CIV4...

 

[Tone]

I am playing CIV for 13 years but here on the forums it always takes me a time to catch what your guys mean with various abbrevations. This time it took me only 15 seconds to understand "UUs" are Unique Units.
Isn`t any "Civfanatics forum abbrevations list" available somewhore on the site?

How about this ?

 

[Nuggetman]

How about this ?

Yes... how about that...

 

[automator]

Maybe declaring war on Korea and signing MA's with Germany and/or France etc would be a good option.

ETA: You actually do not have to participate in the war very much

I'll vouch for that.

story follows, then a bit of help, perhaps

My last game I played, I was Babylon, on a continent with Persia, Egypt and Japan. I'd played pretty peacefully, only starting a little AA skirmish with Persia to snag a few desireable cities. In the mid-middle ages, Japan asks for a couple techs and I refuse, so they declare on me. Out of nowhere. My rep was spotless, I'd traded with them in the past, but they were apparently running out of expansion room and thought I'd be an easy target (which I was, since I was concentrating on techs, leaving myself with a barebones defensive army).

I immediately got Persia and Egypt in on military alliances against Japan. I sat back and didn't change my strategy a bit (except tossing an extra defender onto the border cities nearest the war). I ended up with a huge tech advantage over the rest of my continent and was able to build a strong calvary army by the time Japan made peace with the gang. Then Egypt dropped out of the alliance early, so Persia declared war (Japan was mostly out of the picture, having been chased onto a little five tile island of tundra) on Egypt. I took advantage of this by declaring on Egypt, adding about a dozen cities to my territory. Once into the late Industrial, Persia started getting itchy and declared against me. Of course, by that time I had a handful of tanks, a bunch of calvary and even a few infantry ... against their gang of rifles and muskets. I trounced them until my populace got tired of war and I went for peace, getting a couple techs I'd left behind, some lux and some gpt.

So ... military alliances to defeat another country is great, especially if you can just stay out of the war.

Anyway, if I were you I'd switch to Democracy and concentrate on techs, racing into MA. Once there, build up a nice modern army, ready to take down one or two civs, or at least damage Korea.

 

[The End Is Nigh]

Press F7 to check whether anyone is building Theory of Evolution.

Start building the Palace in your best city. Once Electricity is acquired go for Scientifc Method. As soon as it is researched change production to Theory of Evolution (I know ... this is called cheating).

If you are fast enough and you gain it, then select Atomic Theory and then Elecronics (the two most expensive to acquire).

The other civs will offer you tons of money and techs to acquire them and you will be back on the game.

 

[vmxa]

JulianL
"vmxa - I like the idea of gifting Lisht and Bactra but would it be simply as a gift? Actually I don't see the AI giving me anything much for them but my trading rep is already shot, so if gifting those cities is going to help that plus increase my chances of making alliances later on, I'll do it."

It has to be a gift as they made it so the AI will not trade for cities. I do not remember what was going on now, but I suspect the purpose I had in mind was just to get them off your hands and into soemone that will have to spend on them and defend them for little or no profit.

"As for workers I had generally been using most, though not all of them to rail in the last few turns. I think though that at rate I'm going its far too slow so I probably need more of them. Also I'm probably not prioritising a rail network enough, I'm trying to connect major cities but also rail for extra shields. I should probably drop the 2nd idea for now and just get a network running first."

I try to work it so the workers are heading to a rally point in time for Steam. The point chances per game conditions. If no war coming, then I will work on improving tiles for shields or food near core cities.

If war is going on, then I gear it towards borders and connecting key towns. I use as many workers per tile as it takes to get the tile in one turn.

"and Communism!! Nobody seems to think that was a good idea!
I did that because I thought I'd be likely to start further wars and I was worried about unhappiness."

It is a hard call now. I would probably stay the course, if I had to eat more than 4 or 5 turns of anarchy. I flat never use commie in III/PTW or C3C. I just do not see any reason to take a second switch. Demo is the same. Worse both are techs I do not need.

"as for privateers, that was really curiosity value. I built 2, the first one is sitting at the bottom of the ocean, failed miserably on its first attack. The 2nd one took out a galley but I've come to recognise that they're much use to me."

Yup I don't build themn either. Near as I can recall the AI knows it is you anyway.