WE/SSE vs Lightbulbing SE

[Incan Emperor]

Well I originally was a hardcore CE player, then I decided to try FE and SE. FE is pretty cool, although I have a lot of trouble teching with it, on the SE thing, I have found out there are multiple different SE types WE, SSE, Hybrid, Lightbulbing SE.

The lightbulbing SE is the one I have the most trouble with, and the one most people seem to run here, if I dont manage to get the Mids then the only reason I run Specialists is to lightbulb, while my regular research stalls netting less than a beaker per citizen, once popping GP becomes too dificult which also pairs up with techs costing more than 1200 beakers I hit a wall, I have no choice but to either painfully convert to a CE or milk my tech lead by starting an all out World War.

WE and SSE dont hit this wall, they just keep getting better, while not at the same rate that a CE improves but it is much more sustainable than a lightbulb based SE.

Now something pretty important here too, Ind is SO much better than Philo for an SSE simply because if you have no stone, you dont stand a shot at the Mids if you are Philo and not Ind, Ind in the other hand can get them on either circumstance and IMO for a non lightbulbing SE early Rep beats ANY trait.

So Hell with the Philo leaders, my favorites for SE are Augustus and Ramesses.

 

[JBossch]

Early representation is certainly ideal for an SE but not absolutely necessary. Granted, if I am going for a strict SE then I will try to hit the mids and if I miss them I will immediately plan on cottaging a few cities. I will still probably run a few GP farm-type cities, and definitely keep popping scientists. I don't understand how you are failing to produce GPs once you get to 1200 beaker techs. This means at CS you are no longer popping GPs? In an SE you should be hitting your stride with GP points around this time. CS can be a struggle in some games but it is usually beelined, then traded for old techs. Once completed, chain irrigation can help maximize food, and thus specialists. What are you bulbing before this? The only things I really bulb regularly are philosophy and a chunk of education. This move will usually ensure winning the liberalism race. I typically only bulb other GPs under very specific circumstances like trying to pull off some kind of gambit (eg. bulb a GE for machinery for an early xbow rush)
Even in a CE you should have a GP farm which you can fill with scientist specialists (using caste system) to pop GSs. After you have bulbed your way to liberalism, its just a hop and a skip to representation and you can get the max out of those specialists.
Industrious is good for a wonder economy but note that people who use this like obsolete always settle GPs. While this can be effective and I do it often, there is little other option when you build so many wonders because you have no idea what GPs will pop. Bulbing effectively requires a GP farm where pollution can be minimized.

Hope this helps.

 

[Incan Emperor]

Early representation is certainly ideal for an SE but not absolutely necessary. Granted, if I am going for a strict SE then I will try to hit the mids and if I miss them I will immediately plan on cottaging a few cities. I will still probably run a few GP farm-type cities, and definitely keep popping scientists. I don't understand how you are failing to produce GPs once you get to 1200 beaker techs. This means at CS you are no longer popping GPs? In an SE you should be hitting your stride with GP points around this time. CS can be a struggle in some games but it is usually beelined, then traded for old techs. Once completed, chain irrigation can help maximize food, and thus specialists. What are you bulbing before this? The only things I really bulb regularly are philosophy and a chunk of education. This move will usually ensure winning the liberalism race. I typically only bulb other GPs under very specific circumstances like trying to pull off some kind of gambit (eg. bulb a GE for machinery for an early xbow rush)
Even in a CE you should have a GP farm which you can fill with scientist specialists (using caste system) to pop GSs. After you have bulbed your way to liberalism, its just a hop and a skip to representation and you can get the max out of those specialists.
Industrious is good for a wonder economy but note that people who use this like obsolete always settle GPs. While this can be effective and I do it often, there is little other option when you build so many wonders because you have no idea what GPs will pop. Bulbing effectively requires a GP farm where pollution can be minimized.

Hope this helps.

Thank you, although Im not asking a question, Im making an statement.

I hate the GP farm term/concept altogether. By 1200 beaker techs I mean when they ALL cost 1200 or more, not the first one that does, that means past Liberalism, I struggle so bad after burning 4-5 GP on my way there, every tech will cost me 2 GP, and I cant trust my PATHETIC research in order to achieve ANYTHING.

Representation IS NOT a hop and skip from Liberalism its is 4-5 GP more to get there. I tend to settle specialists ALOT since that will help me with the post Democracy lag.

You can CHOOSE where to build each wonder, you dont HAVE to build a crazy super wonder city like Obsolete does, build the Mids, HG, Hagia Sophia on a production city, build all Priest and Merchant wonders on your Wall Street, etc. Its not a lottery like everyone says if you only watch carefully where each wonder goes.

Oh, and no I dont beeline CS on an SE, I do on a CE however, the reason I dont beeline CS on an SE is because it easier and sometimes better to go down the Arts path.

 

[VirusMonster]

Sorry for being such a noob, but what do WE and SSE stand for

 

[Dubai Vol]

Sorry for being such a noob, but what do WE and SSE stand for

+1.

I'll keep griping about it. PLEASE spell out the acronyms the first time you use them, then you can use the short form for the rest of your post. It is standard practice in writing, and rightly so: it makes your post helpful to many more people. TIA!

 

[Incan Emperor]

WE; Wonder Economy, SE; Specialist Economy, SSE; Super Specialist Economy, FE; Food Economy.

By the way if you PLAN on running an SE and miss out on the Mids, you say you will go about and Cottage a few cities, that means it becomes a Hybrid? Is it no longer an SE? I Thought there where people out there running Scientists everywhere even without the Mids

 

[futurehermit]

The goal of the lightbulbing SE is to get to renaissance era military tech so that you can conquer the world. At that point you have a window of opportunity where teching is no longer required. It is a gambit. It was much more successful in warlords/vanilla where you could lightbulb your way to cavalry really quick and then attack and conquer your continent while your opponents still have medeival troops. At this point it doesn't matter if your teching is at 0 because once you have your continent secure, the game is really in the bag.

If this is not your strategy then a pure lightbulbing economy is not going to work because it will stall in the renaissance era when the techs become expensive and the gp slow down. That means if you want to lightbulb a lot, which is still ok, you need to have a complementary economic strategy such as running a HUGE amount of scientists (possible, requires a large empire and hitting constitution and biology in a timely manner) or laying down cottages (hybrid).

 

[DigitalBoy]

I don't usually try for an all-out specialist economy. Specialist economy for me usually entails having two cities with a boatload of scientists with a lot of the rest being either cottaged or production-oriented. I guess that would make it more like a normal economy with some early great people farms. I usually settle my first great scientist, build an academy with the next one or two, and then start settling again, maybe with a lightbulb or two for expensive techs like Philosophy and Education.

 

[Iranon]

You need to pick an economy according to your needs. Or, the other way round, to fit your general playstyle around the economy you're running.

In a pure Specialist Economy with heavy lightbulbing, you indeed run into a brick wall... that's when you start emphasising production, ignore research and take over the known world. Either you go for a military victory, or you conquer enough land that sheer mass will allow you to overcome the sorry state of your economy in time.

If you aren't willing to cope with an economy that gets you to a specific point in record time and then starts sucking, play something else.
People who run an economy dependent on wonder spam for example have to make other concessions. often it means a fairly compact empire since it is difficult to war, expand and catch all important wonders at the same time. If you manage all at once, you probably need to go up a difficulty level.

 

[BurN]

Bulbing becomes weaker later in the game yes. However it's not because you can't straight out bulb techs anymore, that it becomes useless. You can still shave quite a few turns of late game techs. Something that I sometimes use is to partially bulb a tech that an AI doesn't want to trade me. If I don't have any techs that equal or outdo the amount breakers it costs, I can partially bulb it and trade one of my low cost techs for it to an AI.

I didn't used to bulb anything either for a long time but I find it really handy to catch up to or run away from the AI. Don't get me wrong though, I like settling them as well. All depends on the situation.

I think in terms of GP's usefulness in general it's:

- Settle early-game
- Bulb mid-game
- Golden age late-game

 

[Xurr]

Bulbing becomes weaker later in the game yes. However it's not because you can't straight out bulb techs anymore, that it becomes useless. You can still shave quite a few turns of late game techs. Something that I sometimes use is to partially bulb a tech that an AI doesn't want to trade me. If I don't have any techs that equal or outdo the amount breakers it costs, I can partially bulb it and trade one of my low cost techs for it to an AI.

I didn't used to bulb anything either for a long time but I find it really handy to catch up to or run away from the AI. Don't get me wrong though, I like settling them as well. All depends on the situation.

I think in terms of GP's usefulness in general it's:

- Settle early-game
- Bulb mid-game
- Golden age late-game

You can bulb late game to help trade crappy techs for the partially bulbed tech. Not the most efficient thing but it does work in a pinch.

 

[VirusMonster]

don't forget this

 

[Daedal]

+1 what futurehermit said regarding lightbulb SE. The food economy isn't really an economy in itself... it's more a meta-economy. In other words, an FE lets you run an SE of either variety, WWE/HE (hammer economy), or TE (trade economy). The food does not bring in the commerce, it gives you the city size or specialists required do bring in the commerce.

If you're looking for a specialist economy that won't stall mid-game, the WWE economy is it. Look for obsolete's walkthroughs for great examples of that style.

 

[VirusMonster]

Daedal, I agree with your observation on FE except one major thing

TE has very, very little to do with FE... It is a misconception caused by elite players who did not study game mechanics close enough. TE is always there regardless of any economy you are running:

definition of various economies

Each population unit above 10 increases traderoute profits by 5%, while each population unit below 10 reduces traderoute profits by 5%. It does not matter that much if you are running a FE and have 2-3 extra citizens per city.
Krikkitone's trade routes explained article

 

[Daedal]

FE cities can get to size 20+. CE cities normally don't. TE is always there, but you can purposely exploit it by getting lots and lots of food and not running specialists.

 

[VirusMonster]

Well CE cities get to size 15-20 at least... %5 x on average 5 more citizens in a FE than a CE = %25 more trade route profits with 3-4 traderoutes per city and base trade route profit around 2.0-3.0.... should equal to (2.0-3.0)x(3-4)x0.25=1.5-3.0 more commerce per turn in a FE (no specialists whatsoever, pure farms, and you have imba happiness resources to work all those farms)

In conclusion, the effect of FE to traderoute profits is negligible, at least in BTS. You can't exploit it... Do the math, and you will convince yourself further...

 

[VirusMonster]

I love, but love, love, love the holy shrines on large and huge maps.... Here is another, but this time at the WallStreet city...



45x3=135 gold per turn!!! That is a lot guys I can't think of a non-holy shrine wonder that beats these numbers... Settling priests would have given 5gold per turn :-/ so never settle before having built the shrine...

 

[Artichoker]

Well I originally was a hardcore CE player, then I decided to try FE and SE. FE is pretty cool, although I have a lot of trouble teching with it, on the SE thing, I have found out there are multiple different SE types WE, SSE, Hybrid, Lightbulbing SE.

The lightbulbing SE is the one I have the most trouble with, and the one most people seem to run here, if I dont manage to get the Mids then the only reason I run Specialists is to lightbulb, while my regular research stalls netting less than a beaker per citizen, once popping GP becomes too dificult which also pairs up with techs costing more than 1200 beakers I hit a wall, I have no choice but to either painfully convert to a CE or milk my tech lead by starting an all out World War.

WE and SSE dont hit this wall, they just keep getting better, while not at the same rate that a CE improves but it is much more sustainable than a lightbulb based SE.

Now something pretty important here too, Ind is SO much better than Philo for an SSE simply because if you have no stone, you dont stand a shot at the Mids if you are Philo and not Ind, Ind in the other hand can get them on either circumstance and IMO for a non lightbulbing SE early Rep beats ANY trait.

So Hell with the Philo leaders, my favorites for SE are Augustus and Ramesses.

I see what you mean...the game I am playing now illustrates the point that using Wonders and super specialists keeps getting better as you put more super specialists into your city.

One way around this might be to go for an ME (military economy) in the early game. If you can't get the Pyramids, then switch to CE. If your ME is successful, then your greater land area and resources should compensate for having build cottages later in the game.

 

[tycoonist]

i remember when life was simple and there were only two economies: CE and SE. and you always knew the results: SE would win in the short term but CE was better in the longterm. I don't really see the point in these new-fangled economies:
WE (Wonder economy),
SSE (Settles specialist economy),
FE (Food economy),
TE (trade economy,
WESSE (Wonder/Super specialist economy),
WESTE (Wonder specialist trade economy),
FTSE (Free trade Specialist economy),
SSSSE (Sid's Sushi's Settled specialist economy,
TFE (trading Farms economy),
WETFY (Wrong economy type for you) ,
TEST (TESTosterone-fueled death-to-all econmy (aka quechua/praetorian rush)),
PE (punishment economy)



ok, so i made most of them up: what a good way to waste ten minutes of my life...

 

[Iranon]

We're getting into far too many details. At its most basic level, we have 3 basic resources to exploit - food, production and commerce. The choices you can't correct quickly and efficiently - where to settle and which improvements to build - are largely dependent on which of these you focus and determine your economy on the city level.

Other aspects and sources of income - trade routes, pillaging, bullying, whatever - are independent of the general alignment of your economy. Likewise, all economy types can benefit from wonders. When trying to collect wonders or wage massive wars economies will stop doing whatever they normally do and emphasise production - it's a larger detour for some, but I'm often running a cottage economy that makes a few concessions for heavy wonderspam. It's still a commerce-based economy, not relying on massive food/hammers and the theory behind most choices is the same as for any other CE.

***

Cottage Economies differ distinctly from other established types because the decision point where they branch off is obvious and comes early: Food-neutral squares can either be cottaged to provide a lot of commerce eventually, or farmed. The resulting surplus lets you do something else, like continuous whipping, working hammer-heavy tiles or supporting specialists.
If you decide on cottages, you might farm some to grow into your optimal size under some circumstances, but the desired end results is to have as many cottages worked as possible in most cities.

Regarding other economies: What to do with the surplus food once any tile that might net you a food profit does can usually be changed at a whim. Even if you intend to blow the surplus food on scientists, it makes sense to mine currently unworked hills to give you flexibility.

Some choices are determined more by location than overarching strategy. Workshops might be a part of consciously basing your economy on hammers or a replacement for the Usually Unworked Mines in a specialist economy. Once the city has hit a cap, it doesn't benefit from further food. If you doubt that you'll push that cap back in the forseeable future, you might as well give yourself the option to push production in times of need beyond that afforded by your engineers.


*******


The other big choice takes place on the Empire level - 'compact vs. sprawling'. A 6-city empire can dominate normal-sized worlds if the ruler leveraged the savings from forgoing costly expansion. Often the choice is 'small and sophisticated' or 'big and backwards'. A small empire can boost most cities with national wonders, is easy to defend and, most importantly, pays smaller bills.

Once growing pains are overcome, bigger IS better. But an empire wishing to expand and actually benefit from it needs to makes its new acquisitions profitable asap. Religious wonders are an option, so is maximising Trade Routes, and there's also anything that gives free specialists (Mercantilism, Statue of Liberty). If a ruler has none of these, growing is a risky and costly affair, especially since the empire also becomes harder to defend.