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Discussion in 'Civ4 - European Middle Ages Mod' started by Head Serf, May 19, 2007.

  1. Partizanac

    Partizanac Serbian Ambassador in CFC

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    Sorry for not replying I've been on short holiday.

    Well first of all, Serbia was only an empire for 25 years. But she existed even in 9th century trough Serbian States of Raska, Zeta, Travunia, Pagania and Zahumlje. England didn't exist too for a long time, but you probably made it exist as it existed trough a smaller states!

    And I thought the fun of scenarios like this one is to play with smaller Civs against bigger Civs, as in a challenge??? cause where is the point if you pick a Germany for example and you have all those towns. It ruins to fun. And Balkan wouldn't be fun the play if it only has Bulgaria, Hungary, Byzantium and later Ottomans. It needs to be messed up as it really was! and still is!

    Well maybe thats just me...
     
  2. ohcrapitsnico

    ohcrapitsnico Deity

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    Shqype is doing a eastern european battles mod so...

    I know bosnia and serbia are included, maybe if you bother him he will finish it faster.:p
     
  3. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    Okay, you are as bad as THElastone36 bothering people about poland. to start with, in the scenrio that comes with the game, you start out with no cities. second, i know of many battles with england, i dont know a single battle involving serbia except mabye one against the ottomans near or after the mods time limit. so sorry, no serbia, they will be taken over by the hungarians, and you really dont want to face a monty with horse archer that become 12 strenght against mele.
     
  4. Craig_Sutter

    Craig_Sutter Deity

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    That's a little harsh... he only made two posts.

    I would argue against Serbia as well, for much the same reasons. However, that being said, it would be relatively easy to make a scenario with them, should you wish. For example, one could take the Slav civ, which is included, rename them Serbian Empire in a scenario WBS file, and alter other aspects of the WBS file to conform to leader and national names. It may not be an exact match, but may well do for game purposes. There are over 30 civs included in the mod, and at least one should be close enough to a Serbian civ to make a good standin.
     
  5. Partizanac

    Partizanac Serbian Ambassador in CFC

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    Yeah, I would understand if I was a newbie...
    well I can understand the stress... :) but still!

    And @danrell will do an 11 Serbian (medieval) Units when he finishes his middle-eastern ones. That covers the unit lines!

    I'm Civ3 veteran, and in Civ3 MEM2 (Medieval European Mod 2) that has 31 Civs has Serbia. Without any of my interference! :)
     
  6. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    I apoligize Partizanac, it is just that i am really annoyed at the people who post here saying that a certiant civ should be included and gives a reason for it being in even though the mod leader says no. Sorry if you got insulted, i was trying to stave off an argument.
     
  7. Partizanac

    Partizanac Serbian Ambassador in CFC

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    I said I understand the stress :D no worries man! ;)

    And now that the "Slavs" are mentioned, I think that "Slav" state didn't exist in Middle Ages, Slavs are the people like Germans, Latins etc.

    So where did you put that "Slav" state?
     
  8. Craig_Sutter

    Craig_Sutter Deity

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    It isn't anywhere in a current scenario... it's optional for those who are doing scenarios. The way it works is that there are some 30 or so civs in the modpack, and scenario makers pick and choose those they wish to use. So a the Slav civ could be used by a scenario maker who, for instance, wants to have Serbs in his scenario and finds that a Serb civ has not been added to the mod. Or one may wish to use a generic Slav civ rather than a particular one if one is creating a scenario where cultures clash rather than particular nation states... for instance, in a dark age Britain scenario, one could use the included Saxon Civ to represent each of the Anglo-saxon kingdoms seperately, juggling leaderheads from other civs in the mod to individualize the kingdoms... similarly for the native Britons and Welsh. In the first case, they are all Anglo-Saxons and use that overarching civ for its artwork and its UUs, but they've been tailored individually in the WBS. The Slav civ can do likewise for any number of non-included civs. In my Viking Age scenario, I've 4 viking civs... they share the same UU, however, I've adjusted the leaders to reflect individual differences amongst the kingdoms. Like the Slavs, there was never a Viking kingdom, but it is useful for scenario design to have an overarching civ characteristic of its type for flexibility.
     
  9. ohcrapitsnico

    ohcrapitsnico Deity

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    The real problem is the 18 civ limit, and going over that makes the game unbelievably slow for many. Otherwise I say cram as many civs into the game sas you can. :)

    MEM is awesome,the most detailed and accurate mod I have seen only its on civ III and that means that it loses some benefits from being on civ IV but instead you gain a larger civ number.
     
  10. Craig_Sutter

    Craig_Sutter Deity

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    I'd really love to go to 24 once we get into BTS. In my map scenarios I'm always that crucial 2 or 3 available civs short of what I really want.
     
  11. Head Serf

    Head Serf Emperor

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    I'll definitely jump to an either 24 or 32 dll when we go to BTS, however, as long as we use vanilla, we're going to have the civ limit.
     
  12. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    Head serf, is better AI useable here or not because some things have been changed?
     
  13. ohcrapitsnico

    ohcrapitsnico Deity

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    I've created a 26 civ dll if you want to use that. Don't leave me out of the new civ addition debate.:p
     
  14. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    okay, what civs to add? i have no clue.
     
  15. Drtad

    Drtad It Stinks!!!

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    I am still in favor of making Italy divided between the Kingdom of Italy in the north and the Kingdom of Sicily (which also should have control of Mezzogiorno) in the south. Also, Iberia should be further divided with the additions of either Aragon or Portugal. Another addition which could hurt French and German power and thus balance out those areas would be Bohemia, Flanders, or Burgundy. I think that to weaken Poland a Lithuania, the Republic of Novgorod could be a good choice. Just brainstorming.;)
     
  16. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    nah, maybe a civ between russia and tatars to keep russia from being to big but i cant think of any else.
     
  17. Partizanac

    Partizanac Serbian Ambassador in CFC

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  18. ohcrapitsnico

    ohcrapitsnico Deity

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    I would say 2-3 in spain, 2 in france, 2-3 in italy,1 germany, poland, hungary, serbia, bulgaria, byzantines, turks, abbasids, fatimids, 1 in ifriqiya, england, denmark, kiev, tatar, lithuania, some others...

    Thats what about 25?
     
  19. Partizanac

    Partizanac Serbian Ambassador in CFC

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    I would say like this:

    1. Spain
    2. Cordova
    3. France
    4. Burgundy
    5. Italy
    6. Naples
    7. Germany
    8. Poland
    9. Hungary
    10. Serbia
    11. Bulgaria
    12. Byzantium
    13. Ottomans
    14. Abbasids
    15. Fatmids
    16. England
    17. Ireland
    18. Denmark
    19. Kiev
    20. Tatars
    21. Lithuania
    22. Bohemia
    23. Novgorod
    24. Berbers
    25. Sweden
    26. Moscovy
     
  20. Craig_Sutter

    Craig_Sutter Deity

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    Head Serf only has 17 in the included scenario as is. I don't think the number of civs available to the scenario is the problem, but the fact that the mod included map is not large enough for so many civs. I'm not saying we need a bigger map, either... I think it should be up to scenario makers to use the mod provided materials in a creative manner to make the scenarios they wish. I'll likely add some of these civs to my Age of Kings scenario if we go to a 24 or 32 civ mod... I'm stuck at 18 right now.

    I think that if we go to BTS someone can definitely create a scenario with the above mentioned civilizations, but it does not necessarily have to be the one included with the mod. For one, the map would likely need to be increased in size.

    As well, we would not need to add any new civs to the mod to do this... some civs could use the same Civ UUs and Leaders. Sweden and Denmark could both use the UU and Civ characteristics of the Viking Kingdoms Civ (an additional Viking leaderhead added to the mod would help vary that aspect).Kiev, Moscovy and Novgorod could share the Rus UUs in a similar way. Others could be done similarly as well.

    I think adding a second leaderhead to each civ would be helpful, actually. Because the current traits were selected, in part, to make certain every combination was available in at least one leader, some odd choices came about... a Seafarer Otto, for instance. A second leaderhead for each civ would allow a more historical redistribution of leader traits to civilizations, and allow a better choice of leaders in scenarios. For instance, in my scenario I wanted Olaf of Norway to be Pious Seafarer... unfortunately, the only one with that trait was Theodora, so I had to select a different leader to lead my Norwegians. I think it ended up being the Italian leaderhead... Financial Seafarer.

    As I've repeatedly said, don't get the mod and the scenario mixed up. The mod has over 30 civs that can simulate almost any civilization in the middle ages... someone mentioned the Kingdom of Sicily/Naples. Weren't those just the Normans? Well, if so, I would use that Civ and rename the leader Robert (or Roger... don't remember) and the civ, the Kingdom of Sicily and Naples, in the WBS, and use it as is. It doesn't even matter if the are two Norman Civs in the scenario... simply pick a different Leaderhead if you wish, or live with using the same one.

    Anyhow, this all started when I mentioned I wanted more civ slots if we went to BTS. I don't need more civs, just the slots... I'd like another Viking in my BTS mod, and to add a couple of Irish Civs and perhaps the Picts and Visigoths. Note, none of this will require new civs be added to the basic mod... I'll use the Scots for the Picts. And have multiple occurances of their father Civs for the various Viking and Irish kingdoms.

    Finally, since this all hinges on the mod being adapted for BTS, it should be noted that BTS has the ability to combine mods... some sort of modularity. I'm uncertain how it works, but if there is the ability to combine mods, then people could, on their own initiative, make modules that would combine with the EMA mod to tailor it to their specific needs. For instance, when I get BTS and we move to it, I intend to develop a mod component for my Viking age scenario... largely to make the Wonders and Religions conform to the geographical location of the mod (that being NW Europe). Others could do likewise, if for instance, there is a civ they figure ought to have been included in EMA but wasn't. A mini-module to go with EMA containing the altered files and added graphics for a particular civ ought not to be too difficult with BTS's modularity.

    There... a bit long-winded, but so it goes.
     

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