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Welcome to Final Frontier Plus!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Final Frontier Plus' started by TC01, May 26, 2010.

  1. deanej

    deanej Chieftain

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    I think it might have to do with the Microsoft Platform SDK. It has a different version for 64 bit; hence why so many people couldn't use Kael's version (it's 32 bit). I suspect the debug DLL is affected because it needs to be able to attach to a process.
     
  2. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    8,247
    Great job with FF+! Thank you guys for your work!

    I was wondering if there are any plans to implement binary star graphics? There could be a difference in yields or defense bonus for the systems with 2 Suns. Kind of like a city built on the hill vs on the plain. Most star systems are binary stars, or Sun is rather exception than the rule...

    Also can we somehow implement comets and/or moving asteroids? In addition to the static damaging terrain we need some dynamic one. Currently player just has to avoid supernovas and black holes. "Barbarian" comets moving in certain trajectory could damage everything and reappear with certain cyclic periods.
     
  3. God-Emperor

    God-Emperor Chieftain

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    Thanks!

    I have no such plans. Technically, it might not be too difficult to make a model with a pair of very close stars to replace the one central star, but that is "not too difficult" relative to making the other models used by the game which would still take some skill and the right software. Realism takes you only just so far - realistically most star systems probably don't have planets (particularly binary ones - the "3 body problem" indicates that there are not a lot of arrangements that would be stable in the long term, meaning that any planets are likely to be ejected from the star system or absorbed by a star if they form at all) and most stars are red dwarfs or brown dwarfs (which won't have very many, if any, planets). In essence, the game is only showing you the star systems that are useful.

    It is possible, but not likely, that there might be some sort of moving terrain feature, like moving radiation clouds, added at some point. Given the time scale of the game, where 1 turn is 1 month, and a distance scale that is, give or take a factor of 2, probably at least half a light year per plot for the non-galaxy maps (and much more for the galaxy maps) the rate of movement would need to be very slow or very unrealistic. With the scale I just mentioned, moving only 1 plot every 12 turns would still be half the speed of light.

    On the other hand, one or more asteroid fields that could go in one or more of the planet slots in a star system might be nice. Each would need to be sized to fit a specific orbit and composed of many asteroids (possibly taken from the existing asteroid field model) arranged in a circle of the correct radius (and probably more complicated than that to do correctly and look good, particularly since the center of the circle would not be at the center of the model unless it is possible to attach them to the same central location that the star fortress uses). A little Python tweaking and some XML work and you wouldn't be able to build regular buildings there, only special facilities for working the asteroid field (probably giving results similar to a gray planet, but with far fewer options for buildings).

    With the random event system, comet events are possible but with no visual representation (the event images mod component could be added to give each event a picture, which would be nice). Both TC01 and myself want to add random events to the game.

    By the way: At this point FFP actually comes with two random events that could happen, but the random event chance is set to 0 in the XML. I think they may have been active in at least one early version of FFP after my content (from "Finaler Frontier") was added in (since that is where they came from) and later disabled, but it is possible that events were never active in a released version of FFP. The two events are the research breakthrough (+beakers to current tech) and research setback (-beakers to current tech). They are scaled to an even smaller bonus/penalty than the default BtS version, but having only two events means that they both tend to happen pretty quickly to each player and then there is nothing (since they can each only happen once to each player). If you want to activate those two events you can edit CIV4EraInfos.xml and set the iEventChancePerTurn value in each era you want it to be possible in to something other than 0 (I'd suggest going with 1, possibly leaving the first era at 0).
     
  4. mrp8196

    mrp8196 Chieftain

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    what about a multiple production just like gal civ
    civ prod and mil prod at the same time
    add generals and specialists
    final frontier seems to produce slower than regular civ
     
  5. mrp8196

    mrp8196 Chieftain

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    I think the research speed is too fast 926 turns left researching quantum power
    on Prince
    Marathon
    no pirates don't need a bunch of unnecessary battles
    especially when you can just make training compounds and zealot compounds
    I have one real civilization Earth which has some very large planets
    red syndicate is the only that makes sense to be some of the others have penalties
     
  6. mrp8196

    mrp8196 Chieftain

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    why does the tech tree have the fall of Earth story on it?
     
  7. mrp8196

    mrp8196 Chieftain

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    does Earth get a double food bonus
    how else would new Earth get 34 city not that it could ever use all that
    if specialist were available that would help being it so easy to have more people available than working
    any maybe even corporations too
    also trade income seems to be based on pop size not commerce output
     
  8. God-Emperor

    God-Emperor Chieftain

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    It has multiple production of the usual BtS mod sort: if you finish something and have enough production left over to finish the next thing in the build queue then it is built on the same turn. Being able to build more than one thing at the same time would not really be helpful - it would have about the same effect as doubling the production unless you split the existing production between them, in which case you get nothing you don't already have except it would be worse. Getting 2 things in 20 turns is worse than getting 1 thing in 10 followed by another thing in 10 since you don't get to have anything done after the first 10 turns, so get no benefit for 10 full turns after you have some benefit in the sequential method.
    Maybe. Great people,including generals (probably called Great Admirals) would be easier than specialists due to the way FF (P or not) does things.
    In general this may be true. Part of it is that at any given point in the game after the first era you are likely to have fewer star systems than you have cities in regular BtS on the same sized map so your overall output will probably be lower. But it may also be correct for each individual star system compared to one (non-tundra) city.

    You can usually build planetary defense ships pretty quick, or often more than one missile in a turn, and invasion ships are pretty cheap too. Squadrons are not very expensive either. But some units, especially battleships, are quite expensive. Some buildings are pretty cheap for the first one, but the cost escalates as you build more of them in that star system. So once you get a few buildings built that does tend to slow down a bit.

    You are probably correct. I have bumped up the research costs a couple of times, particularly for the later techs, and added some techs (like the new Advanced Shielding tech that you have to get before you can build Omega Battleships and such, but it is not required to get to quantum power) but it should still be possible to get through the entire tech tree before the time victory would take place without much difficulty. Although it would slow you down a little if you didn't do the next thing:
    They are not exactly unnecessary. They force you to build more units than you otherwise might, which means you build fewer buildings and therefore probably have a slightly slower tech rate and production output that you do without them. They also tend to sever trade routes, which also slows down your economy from time to time.

    They also give you something to do and make exploration riskier, especially for a scout ship, and make it so that you can't get some of the goodies with a scout ship (unless maybe you are the Avowers and get lucky with an attack using a promoted recon ship).

    These days I generally play with the new Reduced Pirates option on to cut the number spawned in half. In the first era you see very few pirates moving around and attacking star system since they still like to sit on wreckage and inhabited planets and there are just as many of them as always, so the number left roaming around is actually well under half as many even though the total number is halved. Once the second era pirates show up they become much more active, but still much less than without the option.

    New Earth tends to get off to a good start due to their trait.
    The others have benefits that make up for the disadvantages, generally. A lot of people seem to like the Forge: more production but a slower start.

    Because that is the way it is in regular FF.

    No. They only get what it says they get. It is pretty easy to get a city up to a population that high, but it is frequently pointless because there is usually either not enough happiness for them to all be working or not enough places on the planets for them to be working. But in some cases you can have that much population working, especially if you have access to the Religion value.
    True. Which is why they might get added at some point. But it is tricky.
    Maybe. Maybe not. To some extent they would just make things worse since each corporation would need to have some sort of output: production, credits, culture, research, whatever. This would mean the tech tree would be in ever greater need of rebalancing and the production rate could get pretty messed up too.
    It works the same as in BtS, except for the +1 food and production the Red Syndcate gets for each trade route.

    The base value of a trade route is based on the population of what it is connected to, just like in BtS. Higher population means higher base value for the trade route. It is also a bit easier to get trade route modifiers in FFP than BtS, a lot like having all your cities be coastal in BtS only more so, and populations also sometimes end up higher too. So the base values often end up a bit higher and the modifier acting on that base is also often higher. On the other hand it can be harder to get and maintain foreign trade routes since there are no rivers, coast, or ocean to trade across - only routes work. If you play with pirates on, those routes sometimes get severed.
     
  9. Tortiou

    Tortiou Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2012
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    Hi,

    Thanks for this fantastic mod. I played my first game recently (with Paradise) and I thought I would share a few comments I have / bugs that I noticed.

    1) I think this has been said somewhere else, but the fact that it is impossible to "avoid growth" in some cities makes the game quite complicated as regards managing unhealthiness and unhappiness. The "avoid growth" button is available in the city screen, but nothing happens when I click on it.
    I guess in real life a government can't really control how much the population grows, except with some drastic measures (ie one-child policy like in China), so in that sense the phenomenon is quite realistic. But it would make life so much easier in FF+ if you could tell your planets to stagnate just by clicking on a button!

    2) At one point, the AI used a stealth ship to destroy my construction worker and I had to build a scout very quickly to discover where this a***ole was hiding. It turns out, the stealth ship was hiding in my own capital! I could see it with my scout, but it was not possible to attack the stealth ship, even by removing all my PDS and then trying to attack my own city. I guess this is a bug that the AI used since it is normally impossible to enter another city with a stealth ship (you can just attack the units in the city).

    3) The AI does a very bad job at connecting its own cities with roads. Also, when they build starbases to get resources, they don't follow it up by building roads and extraction facilities on that resource. I hope this can be improved in later versions because I had the impression that my game was a bit too easy with such a dumb AI (I played on the Prince difficulty level). And, my stealth ship had no purpose at all since all the enemy roads were already disrupted!

    4) A minor bug: there's no logo for the Final Frontier Plus shortcut on the desktop :(

    That's it for the main comments. As you can imagine I had a really great game and I can't wait to try it again with another civ :goodjob:

    Thanks!
     
  10. God-Emperor

    God-Emperor Chieftain

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    Welcome to CFC!

    If you activate the button the star system's population will not go up. That is what it does, and all it does. It does not reassign population points when clicked or anything else. It just means that when the city population would increase it does not and the food at and above the the amount needed to grow will start to be discarded.

    Once you have activated it, you may want to manually shift your population around to planets with higher yields in the non-food areas.

    This is true. The AI is doing something the player can't and it is annoying. Fortunately it does not do it very often, but when it does the only thing you can do is wait for it to move away (well, you can lure it out if you don't mind losing a construction ship or risking a weaker ship like a PDS). You can't even attack it with squadrons.

    The human player's can't move a stealth ships onto a plot with someone else's ship on the plot without attacking the ship (I don't remember if it will move across another player's unit if you click on a plot on the other side - probably not, but I'm not sure). The AI can do this.

    I might do something about this eventually. At the very least, allow attacking the enemy stealth ship when it is in a city.

    It does a fairly reasonable job connecting them to begin with, but it stinks at reconnecting them when the pirates sever the trade routes. In the current version it is slightly better than it used to be for one reason: there is a small chance that a construction ship will avoid being sent off to build a starbase when it can do so. It used to be unavoidable. If a starbase could be built and a construction ship finished whatever it was doing and needed new orders it would always get sent to build the starbase (or sensor station). The small chance of avoiding this means that on the rare occasions when it happens the construction ship is free to fix a route instead. But the effect is tiny - it only happens a few times in a game.

    There is a logo, but it may not be applied when the shortcut is created. If you right click on the shortcut and select Properties from the menu you should see a "Change Icon..." button. Using that you should be able to navigate to the place FFP is installed and pick the FinalFrontierIcon.ico file to be the new icon. This icon looks like a black hole with the blue swirly part as in the game.

    Thanks! It is good to get feedback.

    Here are some random thoughts on some of the civs:

    Paradise is a relatively middle of the road type civ - you don't really need to do anything special to take advantage of its leader trait (although most of thema re like this) and there is just one negative aspect to its leader trait which is very clear in what effect it has, the UB is fairly nice, and extra range on bombers is always a good thing (as is the slight increase in collateral damage inflicted). Probably not the easiest or the hardest to play.

    In fact, I'm not really sure which would be the easiest or the hardest. For the human, the Red Syndicate might be the easiest - all you need to do to get the full benefit of the leader trait is to keep your star systems connected. If you do that, you can become quite powerful due to faster growth, a little extra production, and an extra trade route's worth of commerce. The UU is easy to use (but non-military) and the UB is quite clear in its extra abilities. The Forge might be hardest since the slow growth caused by the leader trait can be difficult to overcome, the UB is very late (the latest of all of them), and the UU is only really useful when attacking star systems - but the potentially huge production output once they get going is quite nice. The other candidate for most difficult is Astrotech, which gets an unusual UU (weaker in a direct fight then the non-UU version) and (even after tweaks to make it better) probably the weakest leader trait, although the UB is reasonably nice (it is relatively early and based on a building you want to build a bunch of anyway, and who doesn't like a little extra production?) and they are the only civ that starts with 2 techs already known.

    The Red Syndicate is very powerful in human hands since the human player is likely to be very good at keeping the trade routes connected everywhere (for the AI it is highly variable - sometimes it does very well, others not so much; part of this apparently depends on how far apart the stars are where it starts, probably because being farther apart means more pirates pop up in between them, and also just the general geometry of nebula terrain and other such obstacles).

    The Avowers are easy to play and have the best UU for the early parts of the game, but have a hidden issue: the bonus from the leader's trait is not very good in the early game and they are frequently out researched in the first era, especially by New Earth and Paradise, even though research is "their thing" (the +10% research in effect just gives +1 research until the base output hits 20, which can take a while, after which it is still just +2, and so on; New Earth's extra population point is likely to give 3 or so and Paradise's free mag-lev gives it 1 per population point more than the Avowers get until the Avowers build mag-levs, all assuming they are still running 100% research). Having a UU that adds happiness in the later parts of the game is a very nice thing - in the late game they can have the largest useful populations of any civ, especially if they have access to the Religion value too (their odds of founding it are pretty good).

    Astrotech is a bit tricky. Oddly, in the current version it looks to me like the AI can do quite well with them in about half of the games they are in. I have even found myself behind them in tech around the end of the 2nd era (I think they were about 2 full techs ahead) - how they pulled that off, I do not know.
     
  11. Tortiou

    Tortiou Chieftain

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    Hi God Emperor, thanks for your reply!

    Oh, I didn't know that, thanks for the tip. This solves my problem!

    About the stealth ship issue: the AI can indeed hide its stealth ships in your own star systems. While it can be considered as a bug, I had a really good time imagining the situation where the captain of the AI stealth ship decides, against all odds, to hide his ship in the very core of the enemy solar system - actually the last place where the enemy would look for a stealth ship. He would do this by pretending to be a random civilian ship, or by hiding behind an uninhabited moon in the system (a bit like in the movie Star Wars where Han Solo hides the millenium falcon behind the radar of the Empire's spaceship).

    Thanks for your tips. In my game, the Brotherhood and Halis Planned State were the weakest civs, I don't know if that's always the case. New Earth was clearly the strongest and the most expansive in the first turns, but in the end the Avowers of Knwoledge grew stronger in terms of score (despite losing a couple of cities to the Forge).
    Next game I will either try the Astrotechs or New Earth (I love their UU: a battleship carrying squadrons!! reminds me a bit of the BattleStar Galactica)

    Thanks again, for sure I will give you more feedback if I stumble upon something strange/odd/buggy/or even funny. :)
     
  12. Bynk

    Bynk Chieftain

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    Hm. I dont know that this is a bug :D
    But i used it too, i hide my stealth ship into enemy capitol and wait until they construct construction ship to build improvements and then i destroyed it. :D
     
  13. Arexander

    Arexander The obvious lurker

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    First of all, apologies for the bump but there's a slight BB-code error here that I noticed while I was perusing the thread. One of the URL-tags is missing the end quotation mark resulting in one mod and URL being eaten by the mod below it, although the link still takes you to the eaten mod instead of the mod listed. A quick fix, I'm sure. The error also appears in the main mod thread.

    Unfortunately, I couldn't get the CODE-tags to work with the URL-tags so you'll have to quote my post and c&p the fixed code from the quote below or insert the missing quotation mark yourself.

     
  14. TC01

    TC01 Chieftain

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    Whoops. Fixed, thanks for the bug report. :)
     

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