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Were Nazis lefties?

Discussion in 'World History' started by Socrates99, Aug 16, 2018.

  1. Hamilton321

    Hamilton321 Warlord

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    The truth is that all ideologies love to say that they oppose hierarchies, but they almost always end up establishing a new hierarchy or strengthening an existing portion of the hierarchy. Really people who say they oppose hierarchy just oppose a certain segment of the hierarchy. The left opposes corporate hierarchy, the right oppose governmental hierarchy except when it comes to the courts which they support because they are the least easy to liberalize. The Nazis were anti-hierarchical, but only when the old hierarchy got in the way of the new hierarchy they wanted to establish. Now the term Nazi is overused because people like to compare their opponents to Nazis because the vast majority of people do not like the Nazis and there is widespread ignorance about the Nazis. Even people with similar beliefs to the Nazis will often say that they disagree with the Nazis because they do not really know what the Nazis believed or wanted to accomplish.
     
  2. Hamilton321

    Hamilton321 Warlord

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    I think that overall the Nazis didn't lose because of poor performance in the field battles but in overall diplomatic and grand tactical decisions. In the eastern front they were defeated by poor transportation and bad weather as much as Soviet soldiers. Overall the Nazis did very well in the actual battles, even the battles they lost such as Kursk the Nazis were able to inflict very heavy casualties on their opponents.
     
  3. HoloDoc

    HoloDoc Emperor

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    Indeed, the German military was very good at its job. The restrictions placed on it by the Treaty of Versailles led to it having a much larger officer component than usual during the interwar period, which led to some really talented officers like Mannstein, Guderian, Rommel, etc. rising through the ranks, and the street fighting between brow shirts and red shirts had the side effect of creating a generation that was used to casual violence even before the Nazis institutionalised it. It's not for nothing that Wehrmacht translates to "war machine."

    It was logistics and politics that defeated the Germans, not the performance of the military.
     
  4. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    There are dozens of political movements in history which have demonstrably produced more egalitarian outcomes. The labour movement, the American civil rights movement, the Indian independence movement- and that's just taking a few obvious, centre-friendly examples. Pretending that all these movements achieved was a reconfiguration of existing hierarchies is just cynicism for the sake of cynicism.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
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  5. HoloDoc

    HoloDoc Emperor

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    I think his point is that every movement, no matter how egalitarian its outlook, has ended in establishing a hierarchy of its own. We're not the Borg. Yet.
     
  6. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    Logistics are the responsibility of the military. The Americans understood that well, which is why they created the massive Services of Supply.

    One argument has it that the demise of the old Great General Staff of the Kaiserreich under the treaty regulations severely handicapped the Reichswehr and Wehrmacht in the Second World War. The only segment of the staff that survived was the old Operations Section, which was disguised as the Troop Office (Truppenamt). That meant that when the German staff was resurrected under Hitler, it contained men trained almost entirely in operational warfare and not in the logistical support of those operations. I think that this is true, but exaggerated. The German way of war, or Truppenpraxis as described by Rob Citino, always placed a premium on short, decisive conflicts in a geographically constrained space. Institutionally and psychologically, the German military was incapable of fully understanding warfare in other contexts. This led to bizarre decisions, especially in theaters like North Africa and the USSR that required sustained efforts in a vast space against enemies not susceptible to a kurz und vives knock-out punch. Of course, it certainly didn't help that the Hitler-era General Staff was stuffed with warfighting staff officers rather than railway men like Groener - but it wasn't the cause of Germany's difficulties.

    Also, the Germans got straight-up outfought plenty of times during the war. They got outfought on the tactical level, they got outmaneuvered on the operational level, and they got outthought on the strategic level. They made plenty of bad decisions, not all of which - or even most of which - can be plausibly attributed to Hitler. The tremendous successes of the early years and the Germans' favorable ratio of casualties against the USSR throughout the war don't erase that fact.
     
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  7. HoloDoc

    HoloDoc Emperor

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    I don't recall saying the German military never made any mistakes, merely that their overall performance was more than competent. The real issue was that Germany was never economically capable of sustaining that sort of conflict to begin with. Hard to keep your troops supplied with food and clothing on the front if you don't have enough fuel to get there. Japan had similar issues, but worse; more than enough food and plenty of materiel in the Empire, but no way to move it from place to place.
     
  8. r16

    r16 not deity

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    yeah , this country joins the fad . Some grauation thesis declares Führer as the founder of Socialism . Apparently as a genuine mistake . Some intellectual of 1910s is the subject and there is a misspellt name and then it just comes out . With the author carried away and stuff . She says writing the thesis gave her an eye disorder and many thanks and she will correct it when it gets published as a book .
     

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