WH Discussion Thread

[Dracleath]

Here's something I whipped up RE: Mortals of chaos.

To make a long story short, I started working on this, then stormrage posted his mortals of chaos post which was a better layout than what I had, so I was going to redo it from scratch more based on that,then I got distracted by civ4, then 1.20 came out and I had to start from scratch again....


So I took a look at what I could do just editing the bic with units already present as I didn't feel like going through adding new units again as a rough draft.

So here you go, this is dolgans to kurgan only, just the bic now as I still need to go edit the civilopedia, but I still think it helps the dolgans/kurgans out a lot and makes them more interesting.

The gist:

Changed name and city list from dolgans --> kurgan (based on chaos map at warhammer HQ)
Added all bestmen aside from minotaurs.
Added chaos warrior, cultist, knight.
Added chaos troll.
Added lesser daemon.
Added warlord (I thought they needed a bit more in 2nd age to distinguish them from chaos)
Shaman upgrades to chaos warlock.


So now they're a strong offensive civ.

This is the just the bic for testing purposes for you all to play with, have fun.

 

[CartesianFart]

I think I have worked out how bombarding works with AI's... if the AI is actually doing something with a bombard-capable unit, then it will use its bombard function. If it fortifies the unit though and keeps it where it is, it won't bombard anything (except ships, for some reason). So the AI should end up bombarding things with wizards in the mod, especially given how much it moves them round... personally if they're getting that ability I'd also give them -1HP, but I know how much mrtn hates doing that to good units, so I shant expect it

I've been playin this mod for about 1 hour a day,and found out after editing the bombard capable for the wizards that it really make gameplay alot more interesting. I like an idea that wizard can attack long distance but only with a 3-3-1 stat.Maybe missle spells as well.

 

[DJ Bonebraker]

Hikaro, if that "one tile desert" blocking your irrigation had been a hill instead, you'd be just as angry, wouldn't you? In C3C you wouldn't be able to irrigate until Electricity, which is 4th era, Crop Rotation is 2nd era in WH.

Embryodead was dead set against allowing irrigation in desert, I agree with him, and don't think that desert should be irrigated. I haven't seen the Sahara get all irrigated yet, and we have much better technology than in the WH world.
I have seen the AI irrigate deserts in vanilla, and I don't want to see that behaviour in WH.

No, I'd just build a city ON TOP OF THE FRIGGIN' HILL!! An option that's not available with the deserts in the current version of the mod. As for the Irrigation in deserts, What do you think the Egyptians did 4000+ Years ago? Besides, they do just that in Iraq and the Arabian countries, not to mention in the US southwest... And don't argue me about that, I've been to all these places and seen it for myself. Also, Electricity is in the third era in the Epic game, and you can at least still irrigate and/or settle on deserts. If your're still dead set against irrigating deserts, at least allow them to be settled. In the game I'm playing right now, there are only two sources of camels, and one was in a desert near my start, which (thankfully) had hills near it so I could build a city close enough to allow construction of Al Anon's Garden.... The other one, unfortunately was on a 3-tile Islan (all of which were deserts) that also had whales nearby (which, if I or the AI's could have built a city ther would have been fairly productive), but because noone can settle the island, the camels are unobtainable (unless there is some trick you can pull with plunking a colony on the island and having Seafaring or navigation researched).

And agricultural civs are overpowered in WH, not underpowered. I've just started to move up to Demigod difficulty, and I will probably only play Agr civs in the beginning, to get a chance in the land grab. Ever noticed Khemri, Kislev and Estalia getting big in the game? They're all Agr.

You can go for your worthless agricultural city spamming, with 90% of your production and revenue lost through corruption, I'll just stick with Commercial or Industrious and Religious or Scientific so that my realatively few cities will be out-producing yours 10:1, and don't be surprised that all of your cities start flipping because I have 5x the culture you do... THAT is how I do MY "land grabs", with culture... That and having an ICS core city set that can reinforce any of my cities with 1 move of a fast unit, and all cities optomized for production (believe it or not, but I never build granaries, why? because on any difficulty above Warlord, your cities will grow faster than you can keep the stupid people happy, and you'll either cripple your science through luxury tax or cripple your growth from all the entertainers and other specialists you'll need to keep the ingrates in line).

If you don't want to make the changes, that's fine, I'LL　make them myself, and upload the tweaked .biq file for others who, like me, actually want a FUN game to play...

 

[mrtn]

Guess what, this mod isn't about Iraq or the US southwest.
Most of the deserts of the WH world that we know about are inhabited by animated skeletons. They don't need irrigation, seeing as they're dead.
It goes against the world, it's unrealistic and against EDs wishes.

You can go for your worthless agricultural city spamming

Who pissed in your soup? It's not as if I'm trying to stop you to play on whatever difficulty level you want, with whatever tactics you want...

@CF Interesting that it seems to work.

 

[DJ Bonebraker]

Guess what, this mod isn't about Iraq or the US southwest.
Most of the deserts of the WH world that we know about are inhabited by animated skeletons. They don't need irrigation, seeing as they're dead.
It goes against the world, it's unrealistic and against EDs wishes.

Who pissed in your soup? It's not as if I'm trying to stop you to play on whatever difficulty level you want, with whatever tactics you want...

Sorry to sound a bit snappy there, but the three gripes I have about the WH mod all go directly against my play style (i.e. not being able to mine grasslands or plains, not being able to clear jungles and swamps or settle on deserts). Fortunately the random map I got was moderate moisture and warm, so there were fairly few totally useless (read: jungle, swamp, desert and tundra) tiles. Unfortunatley, as my (extremely bad) luck would have it (the same luck that kept me from getting a MGL for almost 4 years), 98% of said worthless tiles (jungle, swamp and desert) ended up in my territory. The only desert outside of the HUGE one between my start and where Ind's two cities on my continent were (they made the extremely bad choice of starting a war with me) is that 3-tile desert island, the only Jungle outside of my territory is about 3 tiles on Brettonia and Albion's continent as well as a few tiles in the Goblin's territory, and there is NO swamp outside of my borders. Fortunately that hasn't kept me from expanding over 44% of the world's land mass... Yes, I actually used the city spam method because about 45% of the tiles on my main continet were unuseable/unsettleable, and so I researched seafaring as fast as I could, and managed to claim a 2-city island, 3/4 cities on a 4-city Island (Brettonia managed to snag the last spot before I could), and two 1-city islands, all of which have my only Iron and warpstone sources.

Seeing as what you said about the deserts makes sence, I'm willing to concede on irigation, if you'd at least allow settling in deserts.... or do I have to start listing cities and/or towns that can be found in deserts (both IRL and in Warhammer)... Hell, Araby, Ind, Khemeri and Lahmia are friggin' desert kingdoms for cryin' out loud

Edit:

I was wondering if you might trouble youself to include a bit more info about Blood Bowl in the civilopedia.... You see I've never played Warhammer Fantasy.... All I know about it is that I've seen the figures and stuff in gaming stores and thought "wow that looks cool, but DA-Yum! those little ol' plastic figures are Expensive!!" so I don't know much about it or the world.... aside from a Warhammer Fantasy novel called The Riders of The Dead, which is about two friends in the Imperial demilancers, one of whom, after a major defeat in Kislev, gets captured by the Hordes of Chaos and becomes a great champion of Tchar, and the other who gets rescued by a Kislevite Rota, and becomes the standard bearer (a position of high honor) in the rota, and eventually defeats his former friend... a very good book I might add.

I have heard something about blood bowl somewhere before, but not much... I'm kind of guessing that it's a cross between American Football and the Roman gladiator arenas.... Or in other words, something that would be on Pay-Per-View in this world.

 

[mrtn]

...Seeing as what you said about the deserts makes sence, I'm willing to concede on irigation, if you'd at least allow settling in deserts.... or do I have to start listing cities and/or towns that can be found in deserts (both IRL and in Warhammer)...

Well, you could claim that those cities are placed in hill/plains tiles surrounded by desert tiles.
I don't want to change embryodead's mod too much, and seeing that I know that he was against this I won't change it, sorry.

...Hell, Araby, Ind, Khemeri and Lahmia are friggin' desert kingdoms for cryin' out loud

Hell isn't a desert kingdom, it's warmer than that.

And Ind is rather a jungle kingdom.

...I have heard something about blood bowl somewhere before, but not much... I'm kind of guessing that it's a cross between American Football and the Roman gladiator arenas.... Or in other words, something that would be on Pay-Per-View in this world.

I haven't played Blood Bowl, but I hope to try it whenever my friend gets around to painting his human players. *mrtn taps his fingers*
But check out the specialist games website

I have however started to play Mordheim (well, I'm painting my warband atm, but soon...), a skirmish game set in the warhammer world, with the added bonus that you only need to paint about ten minis, not 150.

 

[DJ Bonebraker]

Well, you could claim that those cities are placed in hill/plains tiles surrounded by desert tiles.
I don't want to change embryodead's mod too much, and seeing that I know that he was against this I won't change it, sorry.

Fair enough I suppose, but I'd love to hear any ideas you'd have on how to make use of the source of camels in the screenshot attached at the end of this post.

I haven't played Blood Bowl, but I hope to try it whenever my friend gets around to painting his human players. *mrtn taps his fingers*
But check out the specialist games website

Yeah, I checked that out, and it looks like I guessed right... I noticed this on the side while reading the "What is Blood Bowl" bit:

According to their unholy religion, the Chaos All-Stars must cook and eat their coach if they lose a game. If they win, of course, they're allowed to eat him raw.

 

[Scytale]

Can someone tell me why the Khemri Tomb Guard and the Wight Infantry require support ? And I found a bug: the civilopedia said that the War chariot should upgrade into Skeleton chariot but in the editor the war chariot isn't upgradable.

 

[aaglo]

- The tomb guard and wight infantry require support, because they do not reduce the population of the city they are built in. They are also such elite troops, that you have to be ready to pay the price for using them

- I wondered too why the war chariot doesn't upgrade to the skeleton chariot (which I also think it should).

 

[aaglo]

As for the Irrigation in deserts, What do you think the Egyptians did 4000+ Years ago?

To be accurate:
They didn't irrigate desert. They lived on crops grown in the flood plains.

 

[Scytale]

- The tomb guard and wight infantry require support, because they do not reduce the population of the city they are built in. They are also such elite troops, that you have to be ready to pay the price for using them

You're right! I somehow confused the civilopedia entries and thought that the Tomb Guard also requires 1 population to be built.

 

[Scytale]

Two issues I want to discuss:
First, there is the desert problem that everyone is talking about. I had the same problem - I offen start near a large desert area and it's a big disadvantage. While I don't support the ideea of desert settling I think we could use a bonus resource that would give food and commerce/production. This way the desert would become more attractive. How about oases?
The second issue regards a resource for the tundra. I'm working on a map of the WH Old World and Chaos should start in the cold regions in the north, right? But i have no valuable resources to give them other than game, bears and elephants and none of these resources seem to help them - when I tested the map the AI develops poorly. So I was thinking, what if we create a resource that is only visble by chaos, available in tundra tiles and gives food and production? This way the civilizations with chaos alignment would be tented to settle in the tundra and this change would not affect the way the other civs are playing.

What do you think people?

 

[CartesianFart]

Two issues I want to discuss:
First, there is the desert problem that everyone is talking about. I had the same problem - I offen start near a large desert area and it's a big disadvantage. While I don't support the ideea of desert settling I think we could use a bonus resource that would give food and commerce/production. This way the desert would become more attractive. How about oases?

Yeah,stop torturing us and bring back oasis

 

[aaglo]

The second issue regards a resource for the tundra. I'm working on a map of the WH Old World and Chaos should start in the cold regions in the north, right? But i have no valuable resources to give them other than game, bears and elephants and none of these resources seem to help them - when I tested the map the AI develops poorly. So I was thinking, what if we create a resource that is only visble by chaos, available in tundra tiles and gives food and production? This way the civilizations with chaos alignment would be tented to settle in the tundra and this change would not affect the way the other civs are playing.

Well, there are also silk, furs and timber. I think that a resource visible only to chaos would be quite difficult to explain...

 

[LMR]

was it one of your maps, scytale, that had seals? coz seals live in the artic, and they taste good

 

[Scytale]

Well, there are also silk, furs and timber. I think that a resource visible only to chaos would be quite difficult to explain...

You're right of course, but neither of these resources give a sufficient bonus to supplement the lack of shields/food in the tundra. And about the explaining part, well I was thinking the resouce could be that herdstone you made. The explanation: secret places in the frozen lands or forests where the minions of chaos congregate and bring their spoils of war giving a percentage as tribute to their dark lord. I know it's farfeched but with a little polish it could work...what do you think?

@LizardmenRule!

Yes it was mine , but I'm rebuilding it to be compatible with the new version of the WH mod.

 

[mrtn]

was it one of your maps, scytale, that had seals? coz seals live in the artic, and they taste good

Seals, however, do not live in tundra, which is the terrain in question...
Flippers are not suitable for traversing frozen lichen-covered stones.

 

[LMR]

warpstone-mutated seals, my friend

penguins? icecream? eskimos?

 

[kairob]

could you create your own? make it so only chaos can get it, make it invisable, put it on all the tundra without a resauce and put in the cyclapedia that chaos get +1 food and shield in tundra...
...just for the map like?

 

[DJ Bonebraker]

I aggree with Syctale about at least having Oases for the desert, and maybe scrap the badlands... It was bad enough that I ended up with 3/4 of the entire world's desert tiles in my borders, but it was even worse that I also ended up with 100% of the badlands tiles. If I was the AI, I'd never have made it past the first age.... Fortunately I've been playing Civ III on Regent since Vanilla 1.0, so I just used my l33t sk1lz to sieze any available land with a bunch of farily worthless cities (so I could get massive troop support for my aggressive colonization effort) and research seafaring as fast as I could in a gamble to claim any offshore islands that there might be (one that fortunately paid off).

Also, and update about the (literally) desert island in the screenshot I made: I tried a trick I'd heard in rumors from the seedy Civ III underground.... Namely, I sent three workers that didn't have anything better to do to the island, roaded all the tiles and had one of the workers build a colony... Unfortunately, it didn't work, despite the fact that I'd also just researched Navigation (allowing trade over ocean tiles)... So it looks like the rumor (the one that said that coastal colonies could be connected by sea trade routes) is false, so it ends up that having 3/4 of the planet's desert gave me one insignificant advantage: I'm the only one that has any camels, and therefore, only I can build Al-Anon's Garden Once the garden's done, I'm going to see about trading my one source of camels to Ind, if they have anything useful. Maybe you should increase the appearance probablility of camels (since, IRL, there are HUGE herds of wild camels in the Gobi desert, and fairly large herds of feral camels in the sahara).

One other update on my current game: the stupid Chaos dwarves decided to declare war on me, and I wiped them off the map... Not too hard to do since I managed to somehow build all the Knightly orders I think that one other interesting side effect of having so many worthless tiles in my kingdom caused me to change my strategy to city-spam, which in turn made me the world's largest kingdom by the end of the first age, and enabled me to get almost an entire era ahead of everyone else in research.... Now that I also have Mt. Arachnos and the Fighter's Guild Charter, I never have to worry about building my own units, and have my cities concentrate on production, commerce and culture.