What 5 Civilizations Should Always Be In Civ?

[Willem]

Actually, Democracy as we know it in Europe (separation of powers: parliament, police, judicial system) is modelled after some French guy named Montesquie, who was influenced, indeed, by the British philosopher John Locke. But the Greeks and Romans of course knew already a different form of Democracy.

I don't exactly view the Greek and Roman models as Democracy. Those were more like Oligarchies, large portions of the population were excluded from participating. As for your French guy, theory doesn't come close to actual practise, and it was the English who first began the process of Democratization. England had a functioning parliament when France was still being ruled by a Monarch, as did every other European nation. With the possible exception of Holland.

 

[Akka]

It was also the English that began the concept of Democracy. I'd say that's a pretty hefty cultural legacy. And just speaking in terms of European history, they were always a major powerhouse during the Middle Ages and beyond. And European culture in general has had a major impact on the world as we know it today. America is essentially a European culture in it's basic nature.

Actually, Greece was the first one to have democracy (though restricted).
And if you talk about Europe, then Switzerland had a functionnal democracy centuries before England.

Sorry, all your attempts simply fall flat.

 

[darkdude]

I don't exactly view the Greek and Roman models as Democracy. Those were more like Oligarchies, large portions of the population were excluded from participating.

Granted, it might not be the democracy that we think about when speaking of it (only 18+ year old male non-foreigners were allowed to have their saying in the old Athens) but it was a start nevertheless on the path to 'true' liberal Democracy.
Actually I don't view England as a representative one-man-one vote democracy system, as England still has the district system, meaning that you get into parliament when the majority of a district (say 50 thousand people) votes for the party you represent. This means that the other votes don't count anymore and are lost! Something like that should not be I think; all votes should be added up and then the positions in parliament calculated by dividing the number of seats available by the number of total votes to decide how many votes a party requires for one seat; that is true representative democracy. But the larger parties have advantage of this district system which is why I think this anomaly stays around even today.
Of course, a one-man-one-vote (also for women) system is not perfect either, because the vote of someone who took a lot of time to consider his/her vote taking into account the program of all parties is as valuable as someone who just casts a random vote. But as they say: democracy ain't perfect, but it's the best we have. And I don't think something like a test of political knowledge before you can vote is very realistic or even wanted.

 

[Willem]

Actually, Greece was the first one to have democracy (though restricted).
And if you talk about Europe, then Switzerland had a functionnal democracy centuries before England.

Sorry, all your attempts simply fall flat.

And how many countries did the Swiss take their system to? Hmm, none. Virtually every former British colony has some form of democratic system based on the English model. I believe even the American colonies had some form of local representative governments before the revolution, though my history is a little scarse on that point.

And like I said, I don't view the Greek model as a true Democracy. And it was a very short lived experiment.

 

[Willem]

Granted, it might not be the democracy that we think about when speaking of it (only 18+ year old male non-foreigners were allowed to have their saying in the old Athens) but it was a start nevertheless on the path to 'true' liberal Democracy.

Not much of a start. It lasted for a very short time, and it was at least a thousand years before any other nations went down that path again. Rome excluded, though there again it was very short lived and limited enough not to really be considered true Democracy.

 

[Akka]

And how many countries did the Swiss take their system to? Hmm, none. Virtually every former British colony has some form of democratic system based on the English model. I believe even the American colonies had some form of local representative governments before the revolution, though my history is a little scarse on that point.

So what ?
Now you have to have other countries to do like you to have your achievements recorded ?

In other words, you redefine the achievement in order to make it so that only England can claim it. Another example of the why England is overrated by partisanship.

And like I said, I don't view the Greek model as a true Democracy. And it was a very short lived experiment.

Yeah, very short indeed, just some centuries
Only several times more than the time of international greatness of England

Oh, by the way : the Greek democracy was actually at least as encompassing as England's one. In England too, women and foreigners weren't allowed to vote, you know ? Women can vote only very recently, and foreigners still cannot.
You're just being of bad faith, and trying, like I said above, to redefine selected point of supposed greatness to allow England to be the first.

Deal with it, England is overrated.

 

[EdCase]

Just out of interest? Why in the seven hells would any nation allow foreign nationals the vote?
That part of your argument is just plain silly.

In reference to an earlier point..English is the language of choice for scientific communication..is that enough to qualify the English ?

If not ...well they did "invent" football (soccer for the heathens among you) that alone means England is the greatest influnce on culture ever to arise on the face of the planet

 

[Willem]

So what ?
Now you have to have other countries to do like you to have your achievements recorded ?

In other words, you redefine the achievement in order to make it so that only England can claim it. Another example of the why England is overrated by partisanship.

And who else can claim it? What other nation has brought Democracy to so many regions of the world? Not France, not the US, certainly not the Swiss. Hell, most of the former French holdings in Africa are dictatorships today. Even Greece's experiments were largely forgotten for a thousand years.

Yeah, very short indeed, just some centuries
Only several times more than the time of international greatness of England .

It lasted for less than 200 hundred years, I just did some reading. Athenian democracy, which was the longest lasting, was established by Cleisthenes in 508 BC. By 322 BC, the Macedonians finally put an end to it. But even during that time, there were several periods where Athens was ruled by oligarchies. It's a bit longer than I originally thought mind you, but it still wasn't very long in the overall scope of history. Even the US has had Democracy longer than the Greeks ever did, and they certainly don't beat the British record.

Face it, England has done more for Democracy that any other nation in history on a practical level.

 

[HourlyDaily]

Akka I usually find myself agreeing with you, but c'mon.

Okay so England's not a cradle of Civilization which is your criteria for not having it in the top 5, or the top 7. But presumably you are not saying it is too overated to be in the top 10. Look at the language of this forum for one.

I mean it's not like the US has had -anything- to do in shaping world events for the past 10 years, right? No great inventions, no giving aid to foreign countries in their time of need, nothing like that. Not at all.

10 years, even 50 years is but a drop in the ocean friend. And not everything that has been done has been beneficial to the world either but that's another story.

 

[henry k c]

Definatly China because its the only civ that has stood the test of time. Rome because of influence on history. Probably england germany and france too. Egypt and India both failed the test of time and should not be included.

 

[Kyriakos]

i voted for greece, greece, greece, greece and greece, with greece being a first choice after those five.

 

[Akka]

And who else can claim it? What other nation has brought Democracy to so many regions of the world? Not France, not the US, certainly not the Swiss. Hell, most of the former French holdings in Africa are dictatorships today. Even Greece's experiments were largely forgotten for a thousand years.

Greece were the first to discover it and use it. You are simply attempting to change what makes the discovery worth it to fit it only to english

Akka I usually find myself agreeing with you, but c'mon.

Okay so England's not a cradle of Civilization which is your criteria for not having it in the top 5, or the top 7. But presumably you are not saying it is too overated to be in the top 10. Look at the language of this forum for one.

Not just "not a craddle of civilization", but also "very little cultural influence".
If you make a top 10 of the most worthy civilizations STILL ALIVE TODAY, then perhaps that England could be in.
If you make a top 10 of the most worthy civilizations ever, not a chance.
There is China, India, Greece, Rome, Egypt, Babylonia, Mongols, France, Spain, Japan, Persia and Arabia that I would put above it without hesitation. Probably USA if we have another century to judge how it will turn out.
It makes them worthy of the top 20, no doubt, but not the top 10.

 

[Rowain deWolf]

I for one think that Babylon's legacy (even if you don't extend it to Sumeria, Akkad and Assyria) is far greater than Egypt's. A few examples : the division of a circle into 360°, the division of an hour into 60 minutes (from their sexagecimal system), Hammurabi's Code of Laws, their presence in the Bible and all kind of fantasy stories (up to "Matrix" with the Nebuchadnezzar), etc... In fact, Babylon as a nation started around 1800BC and ended around 500BC, with wars inbetween... If you take the whole Mesopotamian pack, it starts before Egypt, and ends after Egypt.

I know the attraction power of Ancient Egypt... But to represent the greatest civs in History, Babylon is my pick over Egypt.

You must be joking right?? I hope you know what Pessach celebrates and that it has something to do with the Bible?? Besides the movie 'The Mumie' is a bit older than Matrix But well if you think that Egypt has only Mumies and completly neglect the rest i can't help you.

Only about the age. Egypt was unified and under a pharao around 2950 BC Sumer was founded at 2800 BC so much to your predating.
About other achievments here an excerpt from wikipedia:
The earliest evidence (circa 1600 BC) of traditional empiricism is credited to Egypt, as evidenced by the Edwin Smith and Ebers papyri. The roots of the Scientific method may be traced back to the ancient Egyptians. The ancient Egyptians are also credited with devising the world's earliest known alphabet, decimal system and complex mathematical formularizations, in the form of the Moscow and Rhind Mathematical Papyri. An awareness of the Golden ratio seems to be reflected in many constructions, such as the Egyptian pyramids.
They were the first to produce glass developed the first known paper(papyrus) and had high knowledge about the human body.

from the timeline of mathematics:
ca. 3100 BC - Egypt, earliest known decimal system allows indefinite counting by way of introducing new symbols
2700 BC - Egypt, precision surveying
2400 BC - Egypt, precise Astronomical Calendar, used even in the Middle Ages for its mathematical regularity
1800 BC - Moscow Mathematical Papyrus, generalized formula for finding volume of frustums
1800 BC - Berlin Papyrus, shows that the ancient Egyptians knew how to solve 2nd order algebraic equations: .
1650 BC - Rhind Mathematical Papyrus, copy of a lost scroll from around 1850 BC, the scribe Ahmes presents first known approximate value of π at 3.16, the first attempt at squaring the circle, earliest known use of a sort of cotangent, and knowledge of solving first order linear equations.

But you can still continue to believe that Egypt only developed Mumies.

 

[Reno]

Egypt, Rome, Greece, China and India. Of cource more civ's should always be in the game, but first and foremost i would put the Ancient civilizations in there. After that would come the later ones, France, England, Russia and Prussia/Germany. After all of those had been placed then last would come the ones that have not been around for a long time (Atleast not yet). America, etc.

 

[kryszcztov]

You must be joking right??

No I ain't joking, it's just that you don't understand what I'm saying and implying.

I hope you know what Pessach celebrates and that it has something to do with the Bible?? Besides the movie 'The Mumie' is a bit older than Matrix But well if you think that Egypt has only Mumies and completly neglect the rest i can't help you.

Only about the age. Egypt was unified and under a pharao around 2950 BC Sumer was founded at 2800 BC so much to your predating.
About other achievments here an excerpt from wikipedia:
The earliest evidence (circa 1600 BC) of traditional empiricism is credited to Egypt, as evidenced by the Edwin Smith and Ebers papyri. The roots of the Scientific method may be traced back to the ancient Egyptians. The ancient Egyptians are also credited with devising the world's earliest known alphabet, decimal system and complex mathematical formularizations, in the form of the Moscow and Rhind Mathematical Papyri. An awareness of the Golden ratio seems to be reflected in many constructions, such as the Egyptian pyramids.
They were the first to produce glass developed the first known paper(papyrus) and had high knowledge about the human body.

from the timeline of mathematics:
ca. 3100 BC - Egypt, earliest known decimal system allows indefinite counting by way of introducing new symbols
2700 BC - Egypt, precision surveying
2400 BC - Egypt, precise Astronomical Calendar, used even in the Middle Ages for its mathematical regularity
1800 BC - Moscow Mathematical Papyrus, generalized formula for finding volume of frustums
1800 BC - Berlin Papyrus, shows that the ancient Egyptians knew how to solve 2nd order algebraic equations: .
1650 BC - Rhind Mathematical Papyrus, copy of a lost scroll from around 1850 BC, the scribe Ahmes presents first known approximate value of π at 3.16, the first attempt at squaring the circle, earliest known use of a sort of cotangent, and knowledge of solving first order linear equations.

But you can still continue to believe that Egypt only developed Mumies.

All of this is very interesting, but it is basically just the same speech that a friend of mine sometimes delivers about Ancient Egypt being at the root of the Western civilization. Almost all you're describing is scientific achievement, and that's the common mistake. Culture =/ science. I'm well aware of some Egyptian achievements in the fields of mathematics for example (the value for Pi is a famous example).

Basically I was just showing that Babylon is also well connected to our times, and that there isn't just Egypt. Furthermore, the example about 'Matrix' was to show the Babylonian influence in a movie which isn't about Babylon at all ! (that IS influence) Your movie 'The Mummy' (didn't watch it, I admit) is clearly about what Egypt used to be, ie. Ancient Egypt is used in an archeologistic way. This has more to do with the Western fascination for Ancient Egpyt than the way Ancient Egypt influences our daily lives and habits.

(You should read my threads in the History forum before making assumptions that Ancient Egypt is only about mummies to me...)

Let's put it this way :
Ancient Egypt was a lost civilization that the West rediscovered 2 centuries ago and became fascinated with. It is unique, and thus restricted to its time (Ancient Era) and place (Nile Valley). It is like an oasis in the middle of a desert (not even a metaphor !) that almost nothing could trouble without destroying it.
Ancient Babylon was a lot more in touch with other people and nations, due to geographical reasons. It influenced Assyria, Phoenicia... When the Egyptians made advancements in mathematics and astronomy, Babylon did some as well and also gave us the 360° and the 60 minutes (that is legacy).
Furtermore, Babylon, in the case of a 5-civ game, could represent the whole Mesopotamian culture, whereas Egypt stands almost alone, merely joined by the Black Pharaohs of Nubia who tried to copy what already existed...

 

[GangsterOctopus]

Culture =/ science

Culture != Science

 

[Rowain deWolf]

All of this is very interesting, but it is basically just the same speech that a friend of mine sometimes delivers about Ancient Egypt being at the root of the Western civilization. Almost all you're describing is scientific achievement, and that's the common mistake. Culture =/ science. I'm well aware of some Egyptian achievements in the fields of mathematics for example (the value for Pi is a famous example).

Basically I was just showing that Babylon is also well connected to our times, and that there isn't just Egypt.

I have never implied that there is only Egypt. Look at my list and you will find Babylon(as a substitute for whole Mesopotamia) as well.

Furthermore, the example about 'Matrix' was to show the Babylonian influence in a movie which isn't about Babylon at all ! (that IS influence)

Sorry but simply because a moviemaker named a 'Ship' Nebukadnedzar is really no prove that Babylon has an influence in our world For what is worth the Goauld(spelling?) in the Stargate-universe have egyptian names.

Let's put it this way :
Ancient Egypt was a lost civilization that the West rediscovered 2 centuries ago and became fascinated with. It is unique, and thus restricted to its time (Ancient Era) and place (Nile Valley). It is like an oasis in the middle of a desert (not even a metaphor !) that almost nothing could trouble without destroying it.
Ancient Babylon was a lot more in touch with other people and nations, due to geographical reasons. It influenced Assyria, Phoenicia...

You really thing anybody in the middleages bothered about Babylon???
Declaring that Ancient Egypt was a lost Civilisation and claiming that Babylon was not seems a bit farfetched to me.

When the Egyptians made advancements in mathematics and astronomy, Babylon did some as well and also gave us the 360° and the 60 minutes (that is legacy).

Yeah and a utter nuissance this legacy is. Would be more fond of them if they had chosen 100 Minutes for the hour.

Furtermore, Babylon, in the case of a 5-civ game, could represent the whole Mesopotamian culture, whereas Egypt stands almost alone, merely joined by the Black Pharaohs of Nubia who tried to copy what already existed...

Yes you can take Babylon as representation for Mesopotamia (although it is a bit unfair to Sumer) but if you do then please expand Egypt to be Roman-Greek-Egypt, Muslimic-Egypt and modern-day Egypt as well.
Still existing today is what I call Legacy.

To clarify i have no Problem to include Babylon in the five but a huge Problem with your long statement that Egypt contrary to Babylon is only at a specific area and time.

PS:

Culture =/ science.

Well then why do you bring the 60 Minutes and 360°?? After all this is also just Science.
Or can you point out to me the huge influence of Babylonian culture in modern days?

 

[Tiberius209]

Let's handle these in reverse order...

It lasted for less than 200 hundred years, I just did some reading. Athenian democracy, which was the longest lasting, was established by Cleisthenes in 508 BC. By 322 BC, the Macedonians finally put an end to it. But even during that time, there were several periods where Athens was ruled by oligarchies. It's a bit longer than I originally thought mind you, but it still wasn't very long in the overall scope of history. Even the US has had Democracy longer than the Greeks ever did, and they certainly don't beat the British record.

Putting the origins of Athenian democracy at Cleisthenes's reforms is sketchy. Cleisthenes' reforms actually could be argued (and has by many people) to have concentrated power within the Alcmaeonid tribe, which, if true, would have facilitated a return to an oligarchy.

The Athenian democracy should, at the very least, be placed from the reforms of Solon, which are dated by various people from between 590 and 570BC, though it was temporarily obscured by the tyrannies of Peisistratus and his sons, Hipparchus and Hippias. I would argue, furthermore, that the roots of Athenian democracy are clearly seen around 100 years previously.

I'd love to know when you date the British 'democracy' from. I'm going to laugh if you dredge up the Magna Charta crap because that said essentially NOTHING about the common man. If you're keen on oligarchical rule, then say Magna Charta.

Now Magna Charta was certainly a step forward, but the Greek democracies, flawed though they were, were far more inclusive than anything within the English system until the passage of Disraeli's Reform Bill of 1867. I'm basing this on the percentage of people allowed to vote. The Athenians allowed all male citizens to vote. This was not accomplished in England until 1867.

Face it, England has done more for Democracy that any other nation in history on a practical level.

Uh, I don't face it because it isn't true.

And who else can claim it? What other nation has brought Democracy to so many regions of the world? Not France, not the US, certainly not the Swiss. Hell, most of the former French holdings in Africa are dictatorships today. Even Greece's experiments were largely forgotten for a thousand years.

Yes, but Greece's city-states were the foundation of the thought that went into the Enlightenment. John Locke, Robespierre, and Jefferson, among others all looked to the Greecian experiments, often debating the merits of the Athenian state versus the Lycurgan ideal of the Spartan state. Who knows what the enlightenment would have produced without the Greek models, but it would have been different.

To argue that 'democracy' wasn't started in Greece is absurd.

 

[Willem]

Greece were the first to discover it and use it. You are simply attempting to change what makes the discovery worth it to fit it only to english

I'm not discounting that the Greeks were the first to use it, but their attempts really had little effect on other nations. Democracy was nothing more than an short-lived experiment until the modern ages. And yes, less than 200 years is short-lived in the overall scope of history. Even though they created it, the English get the credit for spreading it.

 

[sekong]

Rome: for western
China: For Eastern
Egypt: for the oldest
Persia: for the Middle East

The last one, I want to choose from North Europe, then
Russia is the closest