What 5 Civilizations Should Always Be In Civ?

[dyson42]

What about Canada

 

[ForbiddenPalace]

Rome, Greece, China, Egypt, India

 

[Willem]

A dynastic system is not a social system- it is imposition from a power source down through to the people. By definition, a social system requires participation and influence (by use of power) at each strata of the system. If this does not occur, it is a one social system affecting another system.

So, when a new king/queen comes along and reforms the government, a historigrapher would take certain levels of change to indicate a newly formed social system: something like Queen Mary going to Queen Elizabeth, for example. Sure, same family- but not by any means the SAME system anymore.

But the basic system remains the same, it will still be a monarchial government. A change of face at the top wouldn't impact the people being ruled all that much. By your definition, the US has a new social system everytime there's a new president.

 

[kryszcztov]

The fact that it did last a long time was it's legacy, it kept essentially the same form of government for thousands of years. And with minimal internal turmoil. Look at today's world, how many countries can live up to that record?

I'm not trying to diminish Egypt's true power. Saying that Egypt had minimal turnmoil is a bit quick. For a start, we consider 3 highlight periods in Egypt's history, namely the Old, Middle and New Empire, which means it wasn't as continous as one could think. Egypt was conquered by the Hyksos in the middle of the 2nd millenium BC (they learned horses from them -> war chariots !), a tribe from Asia. After the New Empire, Egypt's power started to slowly decline : the Nubians got their revenge at some point (Taharqa), then the Assyrians, the Persians, the Greeks/Macedonians and the Romans succeeded in merging Egyptian culture to theirs, so that, during Cleopatra VII's reign, the Pharaoh tradition was severely let down (religion, etc...). The Arabs carefully forgot the old habits, so that now Egypt isn't this peculiar culture, but just one of the high places in Islam. And the Egyptian culture is there for tourists and Hollywood, but nowhere to be really seen in everyday's life. FYI, Egypt got more than 20 dynasties throughout its history.

To me, legacy is about what is left for the future, not what happened before. Egypt may have lasted thousands of years, it was forgotten by its conquerors. To answer your last question : China, India, Babylon, Greece and Rome lasted enough to deeply influence the rest of the world for a long time. Egypt just happened to keep its culture for itself. Ancient Egypt's "history" stops before the Middle Age, whereas the other civs I mentioned weren't forgotten until now.

 

[Junuxx]

i like ireland/celts just because I'm irish

But in Civ 2, the Celts were mostly based on the Welsh (having the very young city of Cardiff as capital ) and in Civ 3 they should've been named the Gauls. Next time we have Celts in Civ, someone should better do it GOOD

 

[Sark6354201]

My aren't we hostile!

The fact remains that the USSR was formed by Russia. It wasn't some alien experiment that suddenly disappeared from the face of this earth. You brag about the accomplishments of the US, but in many way those were matched by the Russians. They are still the one of the world's largest nuclear powers after all, and they did come up from behind all the European nations and surpassed them.

And by your rationale, does that mean that the Babylonians, Sumerians, Byzantines etc. will never be in a civ again, since they are no longer solvent? The USSR may not be, but Russia still is. Just the fact that they're the largest country in the world gives them a certain amount of prestige.

The USSR (Union of the Soviet Socialist Republics) was grown out of the Soviets in the Russian Empire (city councils). At the time of the Russian revolution of 1917, Russia encompassed territories like the Baltic States, Finland, Ukraine etc. After 1917, some broke away right away (Baltic States, Finland) only to be reconquered by Stalin. The Ukraine and Central Asian nations only broke away after the collapse of the USSR.

Looking at this, we can see that even before the USSR, Russia was a vast empire of many different peoples. Now if you want to nitpick, the USSR was obviously very different from Czarist Russia. IIRC, states such as the Ukraine had their own 'Soviet Republic' which was part of the union. This in theory speaks of a somewhat respectable union, but in reality Moscow controlled these states.

So really, in a game like Civ, there is not a big different between the USSR and (Czarist) Russia, or for that matter the Russian Federation of today which STILL has a lot of diverse peoples in its realm, some who want independance (see the ruins of Grozny..).

Btw, I wouldn't say that Russia really surpassed the Europeans all together... During Peter the Great's reign, he brought in many Western engineers to reform the country and military. St. Petersburg is a very western looking city, built on those principals. The Russians took a lot of German technology after World War II as well. Past that I really don't have any more examples... but to say that 'they' themselves did it is a exaggeration.

 

[Willem]

Btw, I wouldn't say that Russia really surpassed the Europeans all together... During Peter the Great's reign, he brought in many Western engineers to reform the country and military. St. Petersburg is a very western looking city, built on those principals. The Russians took a lot of German technology after World War II as well. Past that I really don't have any more examples... but to say that 'they' themselves did it is a exaggeration.

I don't recall the British sending astronauts into space, or the French etc. except for maybe in an American shuttle. That was a purely Russian/Soviet achievement. Sure they borrowed/stole much of their technology, but they were solely responsible for developing the infrastructure to make it usable. Before WWI, they were a bit of a joke as far as development went, in comparison to all the western nations. They turned that around in a very short period of time.

 

[darkdude]

Babylon - For Middle East legacy
Greece - For western world legacy
Chinese - For eastern world legacy
America - For currently dominating presence
The Netherlands - Well, I'm Dutch so of course but also for a legacy in the world.

As for where would the rest of the world be without America as someone remarked: at the moment a lot of water from Katrina in New Orleans is being pumped out by Dutch pumps helping out the US ones because the American ones are not really suited for that. A country being for over 30% under sea level like The Netherlands of course knows a bit about fighting the water. Have a Russian nuclear sub to get up from the ocean floor? The Dutch will take care of it. Sounds like a good idea to consult some Dutch engineers rebuilding the New Orleans levies right? So a bit more respect for the 'old' European world might well be in place thank you very much. The Dutch sailed and ruled the seas in their golden age, discovered foreign lands (e.g. Tasman island), owned parts of New York, which many few as the capital of the world currently (Wall Street comes from the Dutch 'Wal straat' with a Wal more meaning a dam to keep out the water than a wall; they sold Manhattan for 50 guilders as the story goes; must be the stupidest trade in history; Brooklyn comes from Breukelen, still a Dutch town; Harlem from Haarlem, also a Dutch town), ship language is present in languages like Russian, Dutch sayings are present at other places ('throwing a Dutch party' I've been told means you have to bring your own drinks; okay, we're a bit cheap sometimes, but in my house you won't have to, really), the Dutch recently built one of the modern world wonders as identified by an American engineering society (the Delta Works; that sea-thing again), the first share in the world was issued by a Dutch company (by the East Indian trading company), the American constitution was most probably modeled after ideas coming from the Netherlands. So The Netherlands might not be so blatantly visible (lately) as other civilizations shooting off in space, but they certainly had and still have their share. Something like the oil in your car; you never think of it, but without it you won't come far Of course I admit I am very subjective!

Edit: that came out as one big blur; but it doesn't contain very important info so feel free to skip it

 

[Akka]

But none of those ancient cultures had a global impact like English culture has had. People all over the world are at least learning the language. For that reason alone I feel England should be included.

Wrong. England had a cultural impact close to nil in the world. The impact we see today is nearly entirely due to USA, not to England.
Additionnally, it's still a bit early to evaluate the extent of this influence. Though I've no doubt it will endure and become one of the biggest and most influential cultural change in the whole history, it's only a very, very recent one (less than one century), and as such, it doesn't have the "old and valuable" side that ancient civilization got.

England in itself had a lot of economic and military power during the 18th and 19th (mainly the 19th, where it was truly a huge, though very short-lived, power), but apart that, it had extremely littly influence in its whole history. I would place Spain, France and Italy FAR above England.
The huge overrating of England is mainly due to the fact that it spawned the USA, and so people mix UK and US accomplishment, and above that, the simple "anglo-saxon nationalism".

 

[Undertaker798]

Rome and Greece should be in fo' sure.

Two ancient civs who played a reasonably big part in history.

If you dont agree you can jump of a cliff and die.

 

[Willem]

Wrong. England had a cultural impact close to nil in the world. The impact we see today is nearly entirely due to USA, not to England.

But people all over the world are learning to speak English, not American or French or Chinese. Look at all the people communicating here from around the world. And the language used is, yes English. No other language in history has had as much of an impact. Not to mention that it was the English who first developed the economic system we're all living under, with some help from the Dutch, and began the industrialization of the world. The Americans have refined these things for sure, but it was the English who began it all.

 

[Warman17]

We've got a 187 people who've voted so far. I'm surprised Babylon didn't get as much as it did. It is the cradle of civilization people.

 

[Akka]

But people all over the world are learning to speak English, not American or French or Chinese. Look at all the people communicating here from around the world. And the language used is, yes English.

Actually, the language all over the world is American much more than English.

And it's pointless to bicker about the name of the language. The influence it has gained is solely due to USA. As such, this cultural influence is USA's one, not England's.

This unwillingness to accept facts is a good example of what makes people vote England while it clearly doesn't deserve the spot.

No other language in history has had as much of an impact. Not to mention that it was the English who first developed the economic system we're all living under, with some help from the Dutch, and began the industrialization of the world. The Americans have refined these things for sure, but it was the English who began it all.

The English were in fact the first and fastest to industrialize, but they aren't exactly the only one who did it. And it's a bit small as an accomplishment to have a handful of decades in advance in industrialization to claim the place as "one of the five greatest civilizations of the world".

Make no mistake : I don't dispute the place of England in a much larger selection of civilization. They HAD an impact on the world, they had the second biggest empire of history, they had very strong economics and the like.

But it has very little cultural achievements (which is the first criterium for a "civilization"), and their its power, though considerable, was VERY short-lived (less than a century), and based mainly on commerce, not accomplishments, which leave few legacies for the future. As such, they are well below many other civilization, and CERTAINLY NOT among the "five greatest", by far.

 

[darkdude]

But people all over the world are learning to speak English, not American or French or Chinese. Look at all the people communicating here from around the world. And the language used is, yes English. No other language in history has had as much of an impact. Not to mention that it was the English who first developed the economic system we're all living under, with some help from the Dutch, and began the industrialization of the world. The Americans have refined these things for sure, but it was the English who began it all.

Chinese, or more exact Mandarin, is the most spoken language currently in the world; by about a billion people. Of the second languages learnt by people, English has its place in a lot of countries but it's very doubtful it will ever be the language as the most spoken on earth at any time in the near future.

 

[GangsterOctopus]

1. Rome
2. Greece
3. Persia
4. Egypt
5. Babylon

 

[Willem]

We've got a 187 people who've voted so far. I'm surprised Babylon didn't get as much as it did. It is the cradle of civilization people.

No Sumerian is, the Babylonians borrowed quite a bit from them. That's why I'd like to see them included. But they didn't even make the poll.

 

[darkdude]

No Sumerian is, the Babylonians borrowed quite a bit from them. That's why I'd like to see them included. But they didn't even make the poll.

It's a moot point anyway, because where did the Sumerians come from? There has happened a lot on this earth that simply is not known. From the early groups of people that roamed there's just almost nothing left and what they did is probably only passed on orally when they started to speak. Maybe there was one smart man/woman in early history who started something very significant that was the requirement for the upstart of civilization as we know it (before the Sumerians) and we'll never know.

 

[Willem]

But it has very little cultural achievements (which is the first criterium for a "civilization"), and their its power, though considerable, was VERY short-lived (less than a century), and based mainly on commerce, not accomplishments, which leave few legacies for the future. As such, they are well below many other civilization, and CERTAINLY NOT among the "five greatest", by far.

It was also the English that began the concept of Democracy. I'd say that's a pretty hefty cultural legacy. And just speaking in terms of European history, they were always a major powerhouse during the Middle Ages and beyond. And European culture in general has had a major impact on the world as we know it today. America is essentially a European culture in it's basic nature.

 

[Varelse]

America
Canada
Australia
New Zealand
Iceland

 

[darkdude]

It was also the English that began the concept of Democracy. I'd say that's a pretty hefty cultural legacy. And just speaking in terms of European history, they were always a powerhouse during the Middle Ages and beyond.

Actually, Democracy as we know it in Europe (separation of powers: parliament, police, judicial system) is modelled after some French guy named Montesquie, who was influenced, indeed, by the British philosopher John Locke. But the Greeks and Romans of course knew already a different form of Democracy.