Arachnofiend
Perturbed Pugilist
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2012
- Messages
- 1,950
The Coffee House is how Austria spawns more Great Artists than normal. Just focus your cities to culture growth so you don't pop Scientists instead.
What Civ UAs, UUs etc are you hoping get changed?
- Thread starter Fredgerd
- Start date
The Coffee House is how Austria spawns more Great Artists than normal. Just focus your cities to culture growth so you don't pop Scientists instead.
Hulking Lummox
Warlord
I want changes to Japan big time.
I really want to see
in their UA in some shape or form. My wish is that they would receive a small beaker bonus (5-15%?) based on incoming tourism from all civs. So this way, you can inundate them with your tourism as much as you want but you're actually doing them a huge service. The reason I say this and not a culture bonus is because culture would just make them too strong at resisting a an enemy cultural victory (and I just think they are a very high-tech society in general). This could smoothly work it's way into the Japan late game and be very cool.
And if that is too strong, just make the Bushido portion of the UA not come online until the Medieval era. I don't find this overall suggestion any less arbitrary than the extra spy England got in G&K as it pertains to "Sun Never Sets". That spy actually makes way more sense now with diplomats in the game.
Also the other change is instead of sweeping the Zero under the rug (as so many are wont to do), I would just fix fighters. They suck in general, end of story. I believe BNW will increase their late game usefulness (and the effect it can have on winning the game) but I just don't know about the use of fighters in a balanced fighting force still. Fighter mechanics are completely non-intuitive and everything surrounding their abilities and AA guns in general just needs more visual interface to help the player understand what's happening.
I really want to see
in their UA in some shape or form. My wish is that they would receive a small beaker bonus (5-15%?) based on incoming tourism from all civs. So this way, you can inundate them with your tourism as much as you want but you're actually doing them a huge service. The reason I say this and not a culture bonus is because culture would just make them too strong at resisting a an enemy cultural victory (and I just think they are a very high-tech society in general). This could smoothly work it's way into the Japan late game and be very cool.And if that is too strong, just make the Bushido portion of the UA not come online until the Medieval era. I don't find this overall suggestion any less arbitrary than the extra spy England got in G&K as it pertains to "Sun Never Sets". That spy actually makes way more sense now with diplomats in the game.
Also the other change is instead of sweeping the Zero under the rug (as so many are wont to do), I would just fix fighters. They suck in general, end of story. I believe BNW will increase their late game usefulness (and the effect it can have on winning the game) but I just don't know about the use of fighters in a balanced fighting force still. Fighter mechanics are completely non-intuitive and everything surrounding their abilities and AA guns in general just needs more visual interface to help the player understand what's happening.
Ikael
King
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2005
- Messages
- 873
Well, since this is kinda a wish tread (albeit not inside the realm of the impossible, considering how some civs have been heavily modified such as Arabia and France) there goes my suggestions for remodelling already existing civs (plausability be damned 
)
===========
America
UA - We the people: +1 extra sight to all units. Ideological tennets unlocked at Economics, you start with one additional tennet of your choosing whenever adopting a new ideology (it will add to the tennets, rather than just "filling" them, a la Byzantium's extra belief).
UU: Pioneer. Replaces settler, minutemen. +1 extra sight and movement, 25% cheaper to build. Can defend itself (same strenght as a scout). They can be consumed to reclaim enemy non improved tiles adjacent to your territory (this will cause diplomatic tensions with the civ, tough)
Comment:
"We the people" makes the US a late era powerhouse, while playing with the new ideological tennet system in order to give the American UA a little tad of much needed spice. In terms of favour, the idea is to represent the US power based more on the strenghts of its political system (which was quite advanced for its time) rather than on economy or science per se, which also allows for a quite flexible type of play.
However, the "fast expansion America" and its historical advantage of being able to gobble vast swaths of land is still present trought the pioneer unit, allowing you to employ an agressive, easier expansion due to reduced costs of this settler unit and the lack of need for protection, making it possible even to snatch enemy territory trought a short of "mini culture bomb" mechanic. This will make the US quite apt at horizontal type of expansionist games, and will put them in a collision course with vast land gobblers such as Russia or the Soshone (hello realism!)
======
Japan
UA - Sword, mirror and jade
-50% to ideology related unhappiness, great generals and admirals can be consumed in order to generate a Japanese artifact (ex: "Japanese classical era armour")
UB: Dojo (replaces armory, zero fighter)
Units built starts with the "bushido" promotion. +1 XP to new units for each culture point that the city generates. It has one extra slot for great works, new Japanese - exclusive theming bonuses added for this building
UU: Samurai (improved)
It has all its previous statuses, plus a new promotion: "strategy: unit +100% more likely to generate great generals, unit ignores the enemy's general bonuses".
Comment:
The new Japan is designed to result into a not too much typical combination: a military and cultured type of civ, with each aspect strenghtening the other. Both its UB and UU is geared towards war and a higher production of great generals, while its UA allows Japan to take advantage of this "excess of great generals" and turn them into cultural artifacts.
In addition to that, its UA allows Japan to be able to better resist ideological preassure on the modern times, thus greatly rewarding having a stronger culture and making you able to pursuit whichever ideology you prefer regardless of the pesky foreign influence, making yet again your culture help your war efforts and vice versa.
=====
Celts
UA: Duidric Lore
Cities next to unimproved forests have +1 happiness, +3 if they are near 3 or more unimproved forests or a natural wonder
UI: Burial mould (replaces ceydic hall)
Tech prequisite: None
Can only be built on forest tiles
Can only be built on the ancient and classical eras
They cannot be built next to each other (for balancing reasons)
+2 base faith, +1 faith per passing era, it can be digged like an archeological site with the arrival of archeology (and thus, replaced by eithe a relic or a conmemorative site)
Comment:
A new take on the celts, the idea of the Burial mould is to provide the celts with an early and steady source of faith, but making it able to extend its use pass the early "race for religion". Making it tie with the archeology system would make for a fun improvement planning, me thinks.
The revamped UA, however, is designed in order to make the celts able to expand and grow faster than usual (they were a quite popullous civilization / cultural group), with the added twist of keeping a different strategic factor to city placement relying on forests / natural wonders.
)===========
America
UA - We the people: +1 extra sight to all units. Ideological tennets unlocked at Economics, you start with one additional tennet of your choosing whenever adopting a new ideology (it will add to the tennets, rather than just "filling" them, a la Byzantium's extra belief).
UU: Pioneer. Replaces settler, minutemen. +1 extra sight and movement, 25% cheaper to build. Can defend itself (same strenght as a scout). They can be consumed to reclaim enemy non improved tiles adjacent to your territory (this will cause diplomatic tensions with the civ, tough)
Comment:
"We the people" makes the US a late era powerhouse, while playing with the new ideological tennet system in order to give the American UA a little tad of much needed spice. In terms of favour, the idea is to represent the US power based more on the strenghts of its political system (which was quite advanced for its time) rather than on economy or science per se, which also allows for a quite flexible type of play.
However, the "fast expansion America" and its historical advantage of being able to gobble vast swaths of land is still present trought the pioneer unit, allowing you to employ an agressive, easier expansion due to reduced costs of this settler unit and the lack of need for protection, making it possible even to snatch enemy territory trought a short of "mini culture bomb" mechanic. This will make the US quite apt at horizontal type of expansionist games, and will put them in a collision course with vast land gobblers such as Russia or the Soshone (hello realism!
)======
Japan
UA - Sword, mirror and jade
-50% to ideology related unhappiness, great generals and admirals can be consumed in order to generate a Japanese artifact (ex: "Japanese classical era armour")
UB: Dojo (replaces armory, zero fighter)
Units built starts with the "bushido" promotion. +1 XP to new units for each culture point that the city generates. It has one extra slot for great works, new Japanese - exclusive theming bonuses added for this building
UU: Samurai (improved)
It has all its previous statuses, plus a new promotion: "strategy: unit +100% more likely to generate great generals, unit ignores the enemy's general bonuses".
Comment:
The new Japan is designed to result into a not too much typical combination: a military and cultured type of civ, with each aspect strenghtening the other. Both its UB and UU is geared towards war and a higher production of great generals, while its UA allows Japan to take advantage of this "excess of great generals" and turn them into cultural artifacts.
In addition to that, its UA allows Japan to be able to better resist ideological preassure on the modern times, thus greatly rewarding having a stronger culture and making you able to pursuit whichever ideology you prefer regardless of the pesky foreign influence, making yet again your culture help your war efforts and vice versa.
=====
Celts
UA: Duidric Lore
Cities next to unimproved forests have +1 happiness, +3 if they are near 3 or more unimproved forests or a natural wonder
UI: Burial mould (replaces ceydic hall)
Tech prequisite: None
Can only be built on forest tiles
Can only be built on the ancient and classical eras
They cannot be built next to each other (for balancing reasons)
+2 base faith, +1 faith per passing era, it can be digged like an archeological site with the arrival of archeology (and thus, replaced by eithe a relic or a conmemorative site)
Comment:
A new take on the celts, the idea of the Burial mould is to provide the celts with an early and steady source of faith, but making it able to extend its use pass the early "race for religion". Making it tie with the archeology system would make for a fun improvement planning, me thinks.
The revamped UA, however, is designed in order to make the celts able to expand and grow faster than usual (they were a quite popullous civilization / cultural group), with the added twist of keeping a different strategic factor to city placement relying on forests / natural wonders.
We all now that any UX is better than a UU, since they are the only uniques that only matter temporary. This means Civilzations with 2 UUs are basically in a disadvantage. This is why they need strong UAs like Carthage or The Greeks or UUs that really are exceedingly powerful like England or Mongolia. Or both a powerful UA and powerful UUs like the Huns.
The civs for which this is not true:
Japan, Germany, America
which have mediocre(Landsknecht, Minuteman) to dreadful(all other) UUs and mediocre(America) over bad(Germany) to dreadful(again Japan) UAs.
Those 3 civs are in need of change more than any other!
The civs for which this is not true:
Japan, Germany, America
which have mediocre(Landsknecht, Minuteman) to dreadful(all other) UUs and mediocre(America) over bad(Germany) to dreadful(again Japan) UAs.
Those 3 civs are in need of change more than any other!
SnowKomodo
Deity
Have I been playing Civ wrong all this time?
Because I've never once felt America needed a change, but a large number of people are clamoring for some changes
Because I've never once felt America needed a change, but a large number of people are clamoring for some changes
Maybe not wrong but not competetive? Or you just don't mind that certain Civs are in a disadvantage or you simply never thought about it...
(playing one civ and feeling okay about it is not a great argument in the larger context)
SnowKomodo
Deity
Woah quick reply, I edited it immediately after to specify America because I only meant them
Hulking Lummox
Warlord
In general I think America is pretty good, I just had a great win as them by conquering half of the civs in my game starting out of the 3-front war that was launched against me. I got tired of marginal happiness (even with religion) and went for the science victory I had been building up to.
It's like.. how to put it.. Yes I used Manifest destiny in 3 majorly successful situations. Scouting: check. Two was having some cannons along a coast line fighting with ships (that they could see without a spotter), and the other was purchasing a bit of land at the beginning and to have a forward healing area when capturing a city. Minutemen, especially after you've promoted them to rifles, gw inf, modern inf, etc. are excellent. The B17 I only needed a few of because of my tech lead so while yes, they were amazingly powerful, they just didn't win me the game. In fact I would say that the most critical things in my game were the number of city state allies I had and the fact that I got the Hagia Sophia, neither of those things having anything to do with the American Civ.
TLDR: I could have probably just been the Zulu and had a much easier time of all of it. For one thing, lower maintenance would have meant more money for buying city states or just having more troops out to speed up the wars.
Anyways, I like when people share their suggestions for improving civs. It is always interesting to see what they would change.
It's like.. how to put it.. Yes I used Manifest destiny in 3 majorly successful situations. Scouting: check. Two was having some cannons along a coast line fighting with ships (that they could see without a spotter), and the other was purchasing a bit of land at the beginning and to have a forward healing area when capturing a city. Minutemen, especially after you've promoted them to rifles, gw inf, modern inf, etc. are excellent. The B17 I only needed a few of because of my tech lead so while yes, they were amazingly powerful, they just didn't win me the game. In fact I would say that the most critical things in my game were the number of city state allies I had and the fact that I got the Hagia Sophia, neither of those things having anything to do with the American Civ.
TLDR: I could have probably just been the Zulu and had a much easier time of all of it. For one thing, lower maintenance would have meant more money for buying city states or just having more troops out to speed up the wars.
Anyways, I like when people share their suggestions for improving civs. It is always interesting to see what they would change.
SnowKomodo
Deity
Read the three pages in this thread. There is no argument (beyond a sentence without explanation) arguing why America's Uniques are too weak for the game
You guys are the ones asking for change for America, so the onus is on me to come up with a "great argument"?
(And I'm sure older threads have made a good case against America, in which case I'm all ears, but I'm not about to go on a treasure hunt to find those paragraphs)
But since you asked: +1 sight is very useful throughout the entire game giving you an extra strategic advantage during war. There are times when your line of sight gives you a view of a unit(s) you wouldn't have otherwise seen, thus changing your entire strategy to attack/defend and this often times makes the process quicker. The extra sight also helps somewhat at the beginning when scouting, depending on the map and game type. Purchasing tiles is also very useful in congested areas where you have a bunch of civs vying for land, or for when you need to get to a strategic resource out of the way more quickly than otherwise. The Minuteman is a great unit: Bonus in rough comes in handy every time I use them and the ignores terrain costs is ridiculously awesome (I don't think anybody argues against that). B17 makes late-game warfare a lot easier, although I appreciate that many people don't like to use planes late in the game.
I'm hardly a civ expert so I could be completely wrong and in the minority, but in any case I've never found America to be underwhelming in my playthroughs with them
Like I said, I'm all ears. Just as long as it's not the complaints of the "bland" or "boring" variety, which makes me wonder how much of those complaints are driven by people who are just American and want their "home civ" to be better. (I also don't like the complaints of "they should have a culture or science bonus." Almost every great civilization was great scientifically, culturally, everything, etc etc - the devs are forced to pick and choose.)
I hope you realize that you are basically saying, that while other Civs are better, America is not worse than having no uniques.
And thus agreeing with the people that think America is weak.Hulking Lummox
Warlord
I hope you realize that you are basically saying, that while other Civs are better, America is not worse than having no uniques.
Yep, if I could reemphasize what I was saying: America is pretty good. It's just that while I was able to play around with its features, my game would have been better as someone else. I intended to not sound like I was impressed.
Ah okay, sorry. Half way through your post I got the feeling you were defending it.
Hulking Lummox
Warlord
No problem.
I say break the American Civ apart and rebuild it!
And actually you put it quite well by saying: "while other Civs are better, America is not worse than having no uniques"
I agree that the Minutemen are okay. But they are ONLY "okay" compared to UUs like the Cho Ku No, Longbowman, Keshik, Corolean, etc etc And in my earlier post I stated why this is not enough for having a mediocre UA and a completely terrible 2nd UU. Other Civs that even have 2 "okay" UU get a great UA on top like Greece or at least one AWESOME UU like England or China. The extra sight is situational at best and the times that saving 45 Gold on tile purchase is significantly important can be less than 1 in most games.
SnowKomodo
Deity
That's just the nature of Civ though. Some civs are better than others. It sounds to me like people want America to either be the best of their civ comparables, or altered enough where they are more unique. As an American I would love that, but neither of those are realistic expectations at this point in the Civ 5 process
SnowKomodo
Deity
(If they do in fact change America I'll be eating my words hehe 
)
)I think you are actually wrong about that. While some variation in quality is okay and even hard to point out in other cases, since many things are depending on the map and other factors, it still is undesirable to have 2~3 Civs that are clearly the worst of all in every possible setup. Germany and Japan being the first two in my opinion and America closely following.
SnowKomodo
Deity
I'll agree with you on Germany and Japan. I don't really care for them. But for America I disagree
CleverFool
Warlord
I really like Ikael's idea for Japan. You don't have many cultured warmongers, and I always enjoy unique ideas for a civ. I think thought that the Dojo could be way to strong, when a City is generating 100+ culture a turn... Capping it at a certain point wouldn't be at all a bad thing.
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