What civilizations do you miss in BTS?

[Figaro]

Frankly, Judaism shouldn't really be in the game (nor am I really sure that Confucianism or Taoism should be). The way religions behave in Civ4 is in no way similar to the fortunes of Judaism - with the virtually sole exception of Israel (discounting short-lived minor places like Khazaria), Judaism has always been a minority religion within other nations. The way religion works in Civ4 is basically only relative to state-state relations, on which the presence or absence Judaism has had little real effect, at least not in a way that can be represented in Civ4.

I see no real reason why Israel should be in the game when compared to so many other civs.

 

[Traitorfish]

Frankly, Judaism shouldn't really be in the game (nor am I really sure that Confucianism or Taoism should be).

Well, those are two separate issues- the issue of Judaism's inclusion derives from it's success as a religion, while the issue of Confucianism and Taoism's inclusion is whether or not they are actually religions. Judaism is certainly a religion, while Confucianism and Taoism were certainly successful.

Still, the only realistic replacements would be Zoroastrianism and Sikhism- most other religions are too strongly linked to a particular culture or ethnic group, like Shintoism (similar arguments could arguably made about Hinduism, but that ignores the fact that Hindu was once more widespread than it is now- Islam has largely replaced it in South-East Asia- and that India itself is more diverse than is usually assumed). Jainism is also a potential candidate, but it's really too obscure- Sikhism has far more followers, and Zoroastrianism, while less widespread Jainism than today, once dominated the Persian Empire.

Really, about the only religions that have an inarguable place in the game are Christianity, Islam and Buddhism.

 

[alcaras]

If we define religion as "ordered set of practices worshiping the divine," then, from what I understand, Buddhism isn't really a religion either, per se, just a philosophy of life.

Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Hinduisms are religions by the "ordered set of practices worshiping the divine" definition; but one could argue that defining religion that way is the result of seeing things through a Western viewpoint...

<shrug>

Returning to thread topic, I do hope that there'll be another expansion with more civs being added. Poland is the most glaring omission -- has there ever been a Poland in any Civ series?

 

[ewu.7waker]

I support Judaism being a religion because although it is a minority religion in all but one country across the globe it is a major religion, in many countries across the globe, From Canada, to the States, to Israel to even having major groups in Poland, Ethiopia, even Igboland of Nigeria(which by the way is right beside and partially part of the Historical Benin Kingdom) it has travelled across the world because of it's history of relative decentralization, but in that it has adapted to all cultures and ways of life which is a category that only few religions fit into.

Vote for Benin

 

[Antilogic]

<shrug>

Returning to thread topic, I do hope that there'll be another expansion with more civs being added. Poland is the most glaring omission -- has there ever been a Poland in any Civ series?

Nope.

@Mark Jenkins: I prefer Austria over the HRE for several reasons. First, the Austrian Habsburg royal family had the greatest number of HRE Emperors, and largely dominated that body for centuries. Austria was one of the largest European empires back during its days before the rise of Prussia/Germany...it controlled half of Italy, the land that would be Belgium, most of Southern Germany through the HRE, and Spain, at one point. Not to mention they played a pivotal role in European history by fighting the Muslim Ottomans (and being saved at Vienna). It's true that it was important in the Early Modern period, but its importance dates back even further. It's ironic you mention the Thirty Years War: who were the Holy Roman Emperors during that time? The Austrian Habsburgs. Not to mention Charles V played a very important role in the Reformation, and was a Holy Roman Emperor (and Habsburg) not more than a century before.

The Charlemagne scenario could have still existed without them adding a specific leaderhead for him--I would have preferred consistency in the leaderheads, and using all Medieval-looking pictures like they have for everbody but Charlemagne, Saladin, and Justinian would have been nice.


I don't make my votes based on World Maps, because I don't particularly care for the World Map. So, just throwing in another African Civ or Polynesia to make the World map prettier doesn't really cut it for me. Poland, I think, has always been the honorable mention, and if they add a few more in Civ5, Poland stands a chance of being in the final expansion pack, assuming they follow the Vanilla + 2 Expansion Pack formula they have used before.

I don't think there will be another expansion for Civ4, but I could be wrong. BtS seems awfully...final to me. I'll side with ewu.7walker for Benin, if you want another African civ. But for me, Austria and Hittites are top picks.

 

[alcaras]

Saved at Vienna by no one other than Sobieski and Poland

I wonder why there's never been Poland in any of the Civ games... even the Hitties have been represented before. Conspiracy? Probably not

 

[Antilogic]

Saved at Vienna by no one other than Sobieski and Poland

I wonder why there's never been Poland in any of the Civ games... even the Hitties have been represented before. Conspiracy? Probably not

To be fair, there were multiple battles at Vienna, and only once did the Polish bail them out. However, I intentionally threw in that "saved at Vienna" line to allow a shameless Poland plug.

 

[Figaro]

I support Judaism being a religion because although it is a minority religion in all but one country across the globe it is a major religion, in many countries across the globe, From Canada, to the States, to Israel to even having major groups in Poland, Ethiopia, even Igboland of Nigeria(which by the way is right beside and partially part of the Historical Benin Kingdom) it has travelled across the world because of it's history of relative decentralization, but in that it has adapted to all cultures and ways of life which is a category that only few religions fit into.

Vote for Benin

A minority religion in many countries yes, but actually only 14 million adherents worldwide (fewer than all the other religions in the game, and fewer than Sikhism), which in the grand scheme of things is fairly negligible.

I don't see what's wrong with including a great many more religions in the game, but having them die out over time/when not anyone's state religion. It would be far more realistic.

But back on topic, anyway.

 

[ewu.7waker]

But the point is that Sikhism hasn't existed for even up to 1000 years and is predominately located in one area in central-south Asia. Judaism however has been around for more than 3000 years and is much more versatile, and Christianity, is a branch off of Judaism, and in historical times more accurately before world war 2 there were a lot more than there are now. In terms of historical importance and impact Judaism is a lot more important than Sikhism, though Sikhism could have easily made the list for religions.

Vote for Benin

 

[Antilogic]

A minority religion in many countries yes, but actually only 14 million adherents worldwide (fewer than all the other religions in the game, and fewer than Sikhism), which in the grand scheme of things is fairly negligible.

I don't see what's wrong with including a great many more religions in the game, but having them die out over time/when not anyone's state religion. It would be far more realistic.

But back on topic, anyway.

Firaxis said they did some testing, and found that 7 was optimal. You may notice there is no system in the Epic game for the removal of religions from cities, although a handful of scenarios have Inquisitor units. Overall, it's not a big deal.

 

[Traitorfish]

...and in historical times more accurately before world war 2 there were a lot more than there are now.

Well, strictly speaking that's only true in proportional terms- there are many more Jews now than there have ever been before, but that number as a percentage of world population is indeed less than it once.
Not exactly important, I just wanted to clarify that point.

 

[Figaro]

But the point is that Sikhism hasn't existed for even up to 1000 years and is predominately located in one area in central-south Asia. Judaism however has been around for more than 3000 years and is much more versatile, and Christianity, is a branch off of Judaism, and in historical times more accurately before world war 2 there were a lot more than there are now. In terms of historical importance and impact Judaism is a lot more important than Sikhism, though Sikhism could have easily made the list for religions.

Vote for Benin

The age of a religion shouldn't matter when considering its eligibility for Civ4. Some of the religions in the game are significantly older than others (re Hinduism > Islam). My point remains that Judaism hasn't had the kind of affect on world affairs that is portrayed in Civ4.

Personally, I don't understand why they insist in having only modern-world religions. This seems to me to be inconsistent with the rest of the game; they have no problem including civs that no longer exist, why not so with religions? Surely part of the whole appeal of Civ4 is its potential for "what-if" and all that.

 

[ewu.7waker]

I totally agree. On that thought i wonder why Zoroastrianism isn't a religion...

Vote for Benin

 

[Traitorfish]

No! Stop asking!

Personally, I don't understand why they insist in having only modern-world religions. This seems to me to be inconsistent with the rest of the game; they have no problem including civs that no longer exist, why not so with religions? Surely part of the whole appeal of Civ4 is its potential for "what-if" and all that.

True, but the religions don't really effect the game as the actual civs do- they're just abstract representations, there's no real connection to their real-life counterparts.
Besides, aside from Zoroastrianism, there isn't any old-timey religions of great enough significance to deserve a place in the game.

 

[ewu.7waker]

Dude, i'm not asking you or anybody for that matter it's just a campaign for those who want to vote for benin, if u don't then it doesn't apply to you so ignore it, there's no need to get angry. On another note, the Hellenistic religion(y'know mount olympus and zeus and the roman jupiter and what not) and it's many adaptations are of immense historical cultural significance, it dictated wheather countries went to war or not birth marriage and every facet of life, and it was a very large and complicated religious system who's influence spread through quite a big portion of the old world under Alexander the great, Augustus Caesar and many other imperial roman leaders. I think that Hellenistic Religion is a very legitimate candidate for inclusion especially seeing as how there is a polytheism tech to go with it.

Vote for Benin ( does not apply to Traitorfish )

 

[Traitorfish]

I'm not genuinely annoyed, and I didn't mean to give that impression (I guess a ""may have helped with that). I just thought it'd be a laugh to respond to the request using the same font and brevity. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[TheLastOne36]

to Israel to even having major groups in Poland

If i remember correctly Poland is 97% Christian and the remaining 3% is mostly Muslim. Poland barely has any jews left after WW2.

Saved at Vienna by no one other than Sobieski and Poland

Good good, my influence on you guys is starting to show!

I wonder why there's never been Poland in any of the Civ games... even the Hitties have been represented before. Conspiracy? Probably not

It's cause the games american.

I don't see what's wrong with including a great many more religions in the game, but having them die out over time/when not anyone's state religion. It would be far more realistic.

Fireaxis said that they would've added more, but they thought, and so there playtesters though that 7 was a good enough number.

 

[ewu.7waker]

No worries Traitorfish it's all good

 

[ladiesman]

Dude, i'm not asking you or anybody for that matter it's just a campaign for those who want to vote for benin, if u don't then it doesn't apply to you so ignore it, there's no need to get angry. On another note, the Hellenistic religion(y'know mount olympus and zeus and the roman jupiter and what not) and it's many adaptations are of immense historical cultural significance, it dictated wheather countries went to war or not birth marriage and every facet of life, and it was a very large and complicated religious system who's influence spread through quite a big portion of the old world under Alexander the great, Augustus Caesar and many other imperial roman leaders. I think that Hellenistic Religion is a very legitimate candidate for inclusion especially seeing as how there is a polytheism tech to go with it.

Vote for Benin ( does not apply to Traitorfish )

I'd like to see something like that....I guess that would be the logical one if you wanted to add in another, and make it an ancient religion. That covers Greece and Rome, since the Romans just stole it from Greece anyway. I still kinda miss having something there for the Egyptians, or Vikings, but I would be satisfied with that.

Right now I assume "Hinduism" to not actually be connected to real Hinduism but really just a representation of all polytheistic religions. When i'm playing, I try to match the religion I found to it's real-life counterpart (I use choose religions now).

Really religion doesn't matter at all. I don't see 7 is a magic number....they don't really do much anyway, and usually there's only 1 or 2 that really take off. I would like to see religion play a bigger role in the game, to better emulate the real world. Have different religions give different bonuses, and depending on the civic the AI would act differently. Let's they are your enemy, but have you religion which you have the holy city + shrine for. If they are a Theocracy they will do everything in their power to get that city.

As for another civ to add, I might even like to see the Barbarian State become playable, if you desire. It would work just like the scenario, just added into the epic game. I think Civ has historically used Atilla as the leader of the Barbs? Make it work differently, though. Basically have big roadblocks in terms of organization, teching and diplomacy. To grow, you really NEED to warmonger. And everyone hates you anyway. Put them at a disadvantge for techs, to make conquering and looting techs more neccesary. Maintence would be astronimcal, making them need to pillage to get gold to sustain themselves.

 

[Tronicoz]

TZUM TZUM TZUM!! sweden