What civilizations do you miss in BTS?

[Optimizer]

Wohoo, 600 votes!

 

[Antilogic]

I'd like to see something like that....I guess that would be the logical one if you wanted to add in another, and make it an ancient religion. That covers Greece and Rome, since the Romans just stole it from Greece anyway. I still kinda miss having something there for the Egyptians, or Vikings, but I would be satisfied with that.

Right now I assume "Hinduism" to not actually be connected to real Hinduism but really just a representation of all polytheistic religions. When i'm playing, I try to match the religion I found to it's real-life counterpart (I use choose religions now).

Really religion doesn't matter at all. I don't see 7 is a magic number....they don't really do much anyway, and usually there's only 1 or 2 that really take off. I would like to see religion play a bigger role in the game, to better emulate the real world. Have different religions give different bonuses, and depending on the civic the AI would act differently. Let's they are your enemy, but have you religion which you have the holy city + shrine for. If they are a Theocracy they will do everything in their power to get that city.

As for another civ to add, I might even like to see the Barbarian State become playable, if you desire. It would work just like the scenario, just added into the epic game. I think Civ has historically used Atilla as the leader of the Barbs? Make it work differently, though. Basically have big roadblocks in terms of organization, teching and diplomacy. To grow, you really NEED to warmonger. And everyone hates you anyway. Put them at a disadvantge for techs, to make conquering and looting techs more neccesary. Maintence would be astronimcal, making them need to pillage to get gold to sustain themselves.

The reason why there are 7 religions in the game is because Firaxis did testing before releasing Vanilla, and they thought 7 was the best number. And on the other "ancient" polytheistic religions...take a look at the Civilopedia once and awhile, guys. Unless they've changed it, they explicitly mentioned that "ancient" religions like the Hellenistic, Egyptian, Sumerian, etc. mythos are represented by having no religion in the city (and by the Civic "Paganism"). Then, the modern faiths arise and move in. They also explicitly stated the reason why the religions didn't have different effects was because they wanted to do everything fairly and equally, and be politically correct. You could do this in a mod, where various religions had different buildings and granted different bonuses (like Abbamouse's Realistic Religions mod), but that's always going to be a mod created by somebody here on the boards; Firaxis more than likely will not reverse their PC course on this issue.

In the Barbarians! scenario for Civ4: Warlords, the barbarian leaderhead was Genghis Khan. His name was whatever you named him. The barbarians really aren't all that viable as a Civ, except in a few perverse cases (and you can find screenshots of them on the boards, with the Barbarians building wonders and gaining religions through conquest of Holy Cities).

 

[Figaro]

The reason why there are 7 religions in the game is because Firaxis did testing before releasing Vanilla, and they thought 7 was the best number. And on the other "ancient" polytheistic religions...take a look at the Civilopedia once and awhile, guys. Unless they've changed it, they explicitly mentioned that "ancient" religions like the Hellenistic, Egyptian, Sumerian, etc. mythos are represented by having no religion in the city (and by the Civic "Paganism"). Then, the modern faiths arise and move in. They also explicitly stated the reason why the religions didn't have different effects was because they wanted to do everything fairly and equally, and be politically correct. You could do this in a mod, where various religions had different buildings and granted different bonuses (like Abbamouse's Realistic Religions mod), but that's always going to be a mod created by somebody here on the boards; Firaxis more than likely will not reverse their PC course on this issue.

In the Barbarians! scenario for Civ4: Warlords, the barbarian leaderhead was Genghis Khan. His name was whatever you named him. The barbarians really aren't all that viable as a Civ, except in a few perverse cases (and you can find screenshots of them on the boards, with the Barbarians building wonders and gaining religions through conquest of Holy Cities).

7 is a reasonable number of course; I'm only suggesting inclusion of more if the religion system were to change significantly (namely simulating religions dying out, which, while technically possible in Civ4, is highly unlikely). I don't really see the difference between "Aincient Polytheistic Religions" and the current religions in the game. Hinduism is to an aincient religion that was worshipped at the same time the Greeks and Romans worshipped their own (essentially identical) religions; thus there is no intrinsic quality in the religions that are in the game other than the fact they are still active today.

 

[Traitorfish]

Hinduism is to an aincient religion that was worshipped at the same time the Greeks and Romans worshipped their own (essentially identical) religions; thus there is no intrinsic quality in the religions that are in the game other than the fact they are still active today.

That's an over-simplification- to be fair to Hinduism, it developed to a level of theological sophistication far greater than that of most polytheistic faiths. In fact, many modern forms of Hinduism are more pantheistic than they are polytheistic.

 

[Antilogic]

7 is a reasonable number of course; I'm only suggesting inclusion of more if the religion system were to change significantly (namely simulating religions dying out, which, while technically possible in Civ4, is highly unlikely). I don't really see the difference between "Aincient Polytheistic Religions" and the current religions in the game. Hinduism is to an aincient religion that was worshipped at the same time the Greeks and Romans worshipped their own (essentially identical) religions; thus there is no intrinsic quality in the religions that are in the game other than the fact they are still active today.

To call them "essentially identical" indicates a rather poor understanding of the ancient religious faiths of the Greeks and Romans as compared to the Hindu faith. Judaism, Buddhism, and Hinduism are all considerably older faiths than, say, Christianity and Islam. However, this is not what I meant in the post.

When Firaxis decided on the 7 religions, they picked 7 widely recognizable "modern" religions after some testing. Then, they lumped all the other religions into the generic "pagan" category that your cities have before they get a major, "modern" religion.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

That's an over-simplification- to be fair to Hinduism, it developed to a level of theological sophistication far greater than that of most polytheistic faiths. In fact, many modern forms of Hinduism are more pantheistic than they are polytheistic.

Furthermore, a polytheistic religion is not necessarily more sophisticated than a monotheistic one. That is a very Eurocentric view on matters. Buddhism, Hinduism or Confucianism are not less sophisticated than the three Abrahamitic religions.

 

[cybrxkhan]

^to add, i personally think that the Hellenic, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, MesoAmerican, etc. etc. polytheistic religions, if given a chance to live and thrive like Hinduism, would be in a similar state of complexity to Hinduism today.

 

[dragodon64]

Hinduism survived purely because of its ability to encorporate new beliefs into itself peacefully. Therefore it has changed gradually over time to keep up with the rest of the religious world. You could say that Judaism did this to spawn Christianity and maybe Islam, but were those peaceful and gradual conversions? Heck it's the modern worlds "powder keg."

 

[Antilogic]

^to add, i personally think that the Hellenic, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, MesoAmerican, etc. etc. polytheistic religions, if given a chance to live and thrive like Hinduism, would be in a similar state of complexity to Hinduism today.

It's from awhile ago, I know, but I just checked this thread in my subscription list.

The Hellenic people didn't really take their religions seriously, and developed mystery cults to supplement them. It wasn't so much that morality was a factor in ancient religion, but rather simply a sense that you could bargain with the gods and try and bribe them with sacrifices. You never went to a temple to pray; they were typically stores of treasure. The Gods also tended to be spiteful and capricious...not really caring for humankind whatsoever.

Ancient religions like Hellenism really don't fit with the other main religions of the game, and for that reason it was excluded (along with the fact that, however, odd it seems, it's wrapped up in Paganism).

 

[cybrxkhan]

well, i'm still convinced that polytheistic religions if given the chance could've done something.

 

[Antilogic]

well, i'm still convinced that polytheistic religions if given the chance could've done something.

The thing is, they had a chance and then people left them. Greek polytheism began its decline not when the Christians arrived, but centuries earlier. In the 4th century BCE and afterwards, mystery cults became far more common and acceptable. People only went through the motions of appeasing their polytheistic gods and instead flocked to cults for spiritual guidance. For example, the cult of Asclepius (I'm sorry, I don't quite remember the spelling). This cult was monotheistic, and worshiped a single, caring God that would not laugh at mortal problems but sincerely cared for human life. It sounds a lot like later monotheistic religions, but instead appears centuries earlier in Greece.

I know more of Greek matters than of the other ancient religions, so perhaps this was a local phenomena and not widespread.

 

[intj_rational]

Israel, Indus Civilization, Thailand, Polynesia

 

[Nelgirith]

Voted Hittites, Sioux, Iroquois.

I'm not very happy with a single Native American civilization. I would have prefered more different native factions.

I mostly miss the ancient Mediterranean civilizations like Hittites, Assyrians or even better the Phenicians who are the ones who invented Alphabet !!

 

[Swein Forkbeard]

If there's a "Native American" empire just because Firaxis wanted to lump all Native American tribes in one group, how there's a "Zulu" empire instead of a "Bantu" empire?

Then again, Firaxis would kind of have to SQUEEZE and OOZE city names from the internet, and Sid isn't prepared for that kind of research for a GAME. Lumping them all probably meant that they had a little more liberty for their city lists.

 

[dragodon64]

Well, if I was making this game, a lack of city names would be the biggest problem against making a civilization. A little off topic: I remember in Civ3 when India had like 10 city names! One of the most ancient cultures represented with 10 semi-modern cities! I was outraged! Glad they got more names in this version.

 

[Antilogic]

If there's a "Native American" empire just because Firaxis wanted to lump all Native American tribes in one group, how there's a "Zulu" empire instead of a "Bantu" empire?

Then again, Firaxis would kind of have to SQUEEZE and OOZE city names from the internet, and Sid isn't prepared for that kind of research for a GAME. Lumping them all probably meant that they had a little more liberty for their city lists.

I'm not a fan of lumping, as you've probably noticed. I think the "Native American" lumping is a little more extreme than the "Zulu" lumping, but both need fixing. "Native American" refers to two whole continents, while "Zulu" at least refers to only a part of one continent.

 

[Titus001]

For me Israel or ancient Hebrews and Poland are a must.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

It would be Askelpios in Greek, IIRC(at least in our alphabet). Europa Barbarorum teaches me those things...

Another factoid: Hinduism is a direct descendant of whatever mythos the Indo-Europeans shared before they became all the disparate peoples you see today. In other words, if you want, you can imagine it as a sort of stand-in for other IE-derived religions, though the Celtic religions were most similar. Though it is much different today, it used to be much, much more similar to them, so it's always the religion I aim for when I play the Celts. Hinduism naturally makes the cut because it managed something none of its sister religions did: it survived.

As for civilizations....lots! But I'm keeping my lips sealed...

 

[Öjevind Lång]

The thing is, they had a chance and then people left them. Greek polytheism began its decline not when the Christians arrived, but centuries earlier. In the 4th century BCE and afterwards, mystery cults became far more common and acceptable. People only went through the motions of appeasing their polytheistic gods and instead flocked to cults for spiritual guidance. For example, the cult of Asclepius (I'm sorry, I don't quite remember the spelling). This cult was monotheistic, and worshiped a single, caring God that would not laugh at mortal problems but sincerely cared for human life. It sounds a lot like later monotheistic religions, but instead appears centuries earlier in Greece.

I know more of Greek matters than of the other ancient religions, so perhaps this was a local phenomena and not widespread.

Hinduism, Taoism and Confucianism are still doing very nicely. So is Catholicism, which according to some people is another polytheistic religion.

 

[Ball Lightning]

Well the civs which will be included in World of Legends, the unofficial expansion to Beyond the Sword are these, hopefully these are the ones you want:

Polynesia
Leader: Kamehameha (Seafaring, Agrarian)

Canada
Leader: John A. Macdonald (Expansive, Financial)

Brazil
Leader: Dom Pedro II (Imperialistic, Industrious)

Venezuela
Leader: Simon Bolivar (Protective, Philosophical)

Israel
Leader: David (Spiritual, Organized)

Poland
Leader: Sobieski (Aggressive, X)

Austria
Leader: Franz Josef (X, X)

Timurids
Leader: Tamerlame (Agressive, X)

Hittites
Leader: Suppiliuluma I (Aggressive, Organized)

Tibetans
Leader: Songsten Gampo (Spiritual, Agrarian)

Vietnamese
Leader: Trung Trac (Agrarian, Charismatic)

Thai
Leader: Ramkhamhaeng (Protective, Progressive)

Indonesians
Leader: Gaja Mada (Financial, Seafaring)

Australia
Leader: Menzies (Charismatic, Financial)

Nubia
Leader: Piye (Agrarian, Financial)

Swahili
Leader: Barghash (Seafaring, Progressive)