what do people think about Mongols and Keshiks

theGhost

Chieftain
Joined
Apr 1, 2003
Messages
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Ive noticed that many people dont talk about mongols and their UU. whats wrong with them? those are cheap shock troops. just stay on the attack and you should be fine. 4.2.2. isnt that bad.....just their expansionist trait sucks, but it is necessary.
AND they can cross mountains like they were nothing.

they did cause the fall of the Roman Empire
 
The Mongol civ traits are widely considered to be some of the weaker ones in Civ3; expansionist can be powerful given a map with a great deal of land and lots of goody huts to pop, but it can also be quite useless on other map types. Militaristic is of course useful in promoting more units and giving shield discounts on some buildings, but the two traits do not generally combine very well. With normal speed workers and no shield discounts on any cultural buildings, the Mongols will have their work cut out for them in playing any kind of a peaceful game.

The Keshik is a different issue than the Mongol civ traits altogether. It's been widely derided as a "useless" unique unit, with many different people calling it actually worse than the knight it replaces, but there are some very positive features to the keshik. The first is its "mountainwalk" ability, or the ability to travel over mountains as though they were plains. While not game-breakingly powerful, I have found that this actually comes into play more often than you would think. Oftentimes a crafty player can park keshiks on top of mountain ranges at the end of a turn, where their defense is as good as a samurai (4). Sometimes you can also hit a city which would be otherwise unreachable through the use of this novel trait. On the whole though, it's not an ability which is anything to get too excited about.

What IS significant about the keshik is that it costs fewer shields to build than a knight, 60 shields versus 70. That sounds like a paltry difference, but looking more closely at the way that cities produce units shows that ten shields can have a very big effect. The key thing in producing units is not how many shields they cost, but how many turns it takes to produce the unit. When the math is computed out, it turns out that a keshik takes a full turn less to complete than a knight in virtually every single case that pops up. Take a look:

keshikcomp.jpg


(I'm not good at formatting tables so I just uploaded a picture. :)) A keshik is NOT simply 6/7 the cost of a knight; it depends entirely on how many shields the city working on the unit is producing. For a city at 10 shields/turn, the keshik is indeed 6/7 the cost. But for a city at 15 shields/turn the keshik is 4/5 the cost, and for a city at 20 shields/turn, it is 3/4 of the cost. That's 25% - a BIG difference! Not trivial at all. Of course, for a city making 14, 18, or 19 shields/turn there is no difference at all in cost between the two units; a good reason why you should manage your cities closely! :D So in reality, keshiks are often considerably cheaper than knights, meaning you can expect on average to have about 20% more keshiks than knights. If you don't think that's a significant difference, just remember that the next time you come up "one unit short" of taking a city.

Bottom line is that the keshik's cheaper cost easily tends to make up for its lowered defense. It's a tradeoff to be sure, but frequently one that you can use to your advantage. Just be sure not to leave keshiks unguarded out in the open at the end of a turn. I hope this was helpful.

EDIT: And just to set the record straight, Ghenghis Khan Temujin and the Mongols emerged into the light of history during the late 12th and early 13th century. That was almost 1000 years after the fall of the western half of the Roman Empire. A number of barbarian tribes had a hand in bringing down the Roman Empire, but the Mongols were most definitely not one of them. The Mongols destroyed empires in China, Central Asia, Russia, and Iraq but the Romans were not among that group. :)
 
The Mongol traits are ok if you want to be a warmonger, but considering the Vikings and Zulu have the same traits, they really have to duke it out with those two based on their unique unit if you want to compare the civs.

The comparison doesn't bode terribly well for them: Beserkers are clearly an awesome UU, probably overpowered. Impi are very nifty, and I'd prefer them over Keshiks any day.

Keshiks would be an ok UU, if they didn't have 1 lopped off their defense. Costing 60 shields, not requiring iron, and being able to move fast on mountains would be a reasonable UU, but having less defense really puts them on the poor side of things.

Sure, being cheaper is underrated by many, but the difference isn't that much. Consider how much cheaper war chariots are than horses. A city producing 20 or more shields will produce twice as many war chariots as horsemen, and is a far bigger advantage than the keshik over knights.


The first is its "mountainwalk" ability, or the ability to travel over mountains as though they were plains. While not game-breakingly powerful, I have found that this actually comes into play more often than you would think. Oftentimes a crafty player can park keshiks on top of mountain ranges at the end of a turn, where their defense is as good as a samurai (4).

Uhh...actually there is no possible situation in which a keshik could end its turn on a mountain where a knight couldn't. Think about it :)

Also, keshiks can never have as good defense as samurai from terrain advantages alone: the best a keshik can do is be on mountains, that gives it 4 defense. The worst samurai can do is be on flat land, which give them 4.4 defense.

Finally, keshiks just don't come close to a similiar UU: The Ansar Warrior. Ansars are as cheap as keshiks, and can move at lightning speed. That's far better than the 'mountain-walk' ability. Faster speed is highly synergistic with lower defense, since it allows one to strike quickly, before one can be struck at. Keshiks don't come close to stacking up against Ansars.

My favorite knight-variant UU is the Rider, but Ansars come a close second. Samurai are a little after that, and then it's a race between the weak war elephants and keshiks.

Bottom line is, I just can't imagine the Mongols having conquered the largest land empire the world has ever known with these things...

-Sirp.
 
I don't like the mongols purely for Ghenghis's face. :) Same reason I don't like the Greeks, they are just freaky... :p

But seriously speaking, an expansionist and millitaristic civ is, in my opinion, one of the best choices for a Deity game. Where you can't expect to keep up with culture and all that peaceful crap, so you have to conquer, and rely on those goody huts to give you a nice little boost. Also if playing on 3 Billion years map, Mongols might even be my choice over the Zulu, since you would expect to see much more mountains, and the keshiks might get a lot more handy a bit later in game rather than the rushing impi.
 
I've had fairly good luck playing the Mongols. Not a great combination of traits but adequate. The Keshik is sort of a blue collar UU. Certainly not among the best, but if you build enough of them, they'll serve you well.
I don't think I've ever seen the Mongols do very well as an AI civ, though and I suspect that it's the combination of traits which just don't mesh with the way the AI plays the game.
 
Originally posted by LedZep
I don't like the mongols purely for Ghenghis's face. :) Same reason I don't like the Greeks, they are just freaky... :p

But if you play as them you won't need to see there face in diplomacy :p
 
too bad they didnt bump up the keshik's attack by 1. if it were 5.2.2. then they would be a crazy shock troop. go in, pillage, and run or get slaughtered. I dont remember them wearing armour, but i do remember them covering large areas and doing damage. Maybe they should be 5.2.3
 
5.2.3 + mountain ability + cheaper unit = superunit, might as well give the mongols nukes. :)
 
I'm at a loss to explain why, but in my experience the AI does much better with the Mongols than with the Vikings or Zulu. Could have something to do with the medieval GA, perhaps.

I think I prefer the Ansar Warrior over the Rider, but either clearly beats the Keshik. Pretty ironic that the Chinese should have better medieval horsemen than the Mongols ...

I think for the mountainwalk (WotC should be pleased with us ..) to be truly great, it should've applied to hills too. One of the great things about Riders and Ansars is that they can cross a hill or forest and attack in the same turn - Keshiks can do this with mountains, but those are simply less common than hills/forests, especially near cities where most fighting tends to take place.
 
For mountain-walk to have been of some value then they would have kept the defense value of the Keshik the same as that of knights.


As it is you have a few instances where mountain-walk is useful, but it isn't the gem of an advantage it would have been had the defensive value of the Keshik been 3. Why? You could quickly move into enemy territory, base yourself on a mountain and strike from there.



What annoys me about the Keshik is that it ignores the history of the Mongols where there horse archers swept across vast distances in a short period of time killing anything that they wished to with relatively low losses. The Keshik won't manage that.


Give me the Chinese Rider or a Bezerker instead.
 
Mongolia has for me the 2 worst traits, and a useless UU unless you play 3 billion map. But when i play against mongolia, they always have a really huge empire! not to mention they declare war on me almost every game.
 
I don't think you can say the Keshik is useless. Sullla spells it out for all of us very plainly. While they are not as useful as the Ansar warrior which is both cheaper AND has a movement of three (overpowered?), the Keshik is clearly better than the Knight because of its cheaper cost. Overlooked here is that Keshiks also do not require Iron. This is a not-alltogether-trivial point in many games. For more from Sullla and me on the Keshik, check out EG2 over in the Succession Game forum (sorry, shameless plug :)).
 
come on......mongols without the ability for hardcore pillaging? that ruins half the fun. Ansars ARE overpowered: if you look at the Riders, they have a 4.3.3, and cost 10shields more than a regular knight. but ansars are suped up knights and cost less? geez.
I say: make Ansars longer to train, and keep keshiks the same....
 
How about lowering the cost to 50, with everything else, as it is. Now you can build a ton of them VERY quickly. Would this be too powerful???
 
thats what i thought too.....but its still true that ansars are overpowered.......50 cost shields would be one of the biggest fears in the game.....literally, swarmed......ouch......nothing could stop them
 
Actually, the Rider costs no more than a reg'lar Knight.

I think if any civ deserved a move 3 Knight replacement it was the Mongols. Radical solution; Make the Keshik 4/3/3 at 70 shields, possibly still requiring no Iron but ditching the Mountainwalk ability which doesn't make too much sense really, and give the Chinese something recongnizably Chinese. Maoist Guerillas perhaps; same stats as normal ones, but dirt cheap. Or a huge Jonk, like those in Zheng He's armada; an improved Caravel probably. Or some early gunpowder weapon.
 
I have to agree. They should have been made to be either 4.2.3 or 5.2.2 at the 60 shield cost. Either way they would extremely more effective. I'd probbaly lean towards the 5 attack, seeing as though there is no unique unit with a 5 attack value yet, while there are two that have a 3 movement value.
 
Ive only played one game as the Mongols(on Emporer), i did pretty darn well too :)

The Keshik, because it is so cheap, was a great help. I built about 60 of them and stormed the AI. I destroyed 2 AI's, one of them was the "Superpower", solely with the Keshik. But as usual i got bored with the game and gave up :(

I think the Keshik is very under-rated. It is one of my favourite UU's. The stats for em are good as they are in my opinion :)
 
I think that all the UU's in this game are balanced very good, and there is no really "underpoweres" or "overpower" civ. The mongols are very good at expanding quickly, throwing together a large military, and attacking.
 
Originally posted by Sullla
A number of barbarian tribes had a hand in bringing down the Roman Empire

Grrr... I'd prefer to say that the Roman empire collapsed in on itself due to the fact that the imperial troops were far lazier and disheartened that the glorious legions of the late republic and because they had no brilliant minds, like Marius or Caesar, to really put the deteriorating empire back on its feet, though Justinian did try. I'd like to thing that the empire was just too old, fat, and lazy to continue any longer and the barbarians were merely the straw that broke the camel's back. Anyway, sorry that this was a little of topic...
 
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